Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#161

Post by christiansakai » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

growlist wrote: post #80

christiansakai wrote: post #42

Read "Amusing Ourselves to Death" by Neil Postman. You will realize that Social Media is designed in such a way intentionally to draw toxicity from society. No technology is neutral. Technology gives and technology takes away. Medium is the message. Communication evolved because of the medium. For every evolution, it gives something and it takes away something. From oral communication to the printing press to telegra…

> A good example of a person who knows exactly how TV audience and social media audience will behave in a predictable way, and took advantage of that, is President Trump. Trump wasn't the first though, and contrast the coverage: Obama's digital strategy was lauded for its tech-savvy genius by the media, whereas Trump's campaign was linked by the same to white supremacists wrt Pepe the Frog etc.

He wasn't. I'm just pointing out he is doing a good job at it. It is no secret for people who work in the media industry that "entertaining" and "outrageousness" is a recipe for success.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#162

Post by logfromblammo » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

"We" don't fix it.

This hasn't been going on for 7 years; it has been happening for at least 40.

The rage stems from the wage, which has stagnated for the working class for as long as I have been around to see it. People are trying to telegraph that unpleasant things will be happening soon, if all the people who are constantly dumping on their inferiors don't at least start handing out some umbrellas.

I think the tech has actually been a mitigating factor. Online mobs can't throw real-life firebombs. When people go out to actually do something, there are fewer people in the same physical place to pump each other up.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#163

Post by JackFr » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

organsnyder wrote: post #84

tengbretson wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might find that the people you see posting and repeating these lies see the things that you post and repeat as lies.

And one of the sides has to be right. Sometimes the facts are difficult to ascertain, but so many of the lies spread via social media are easily disproved by consulting primary sources.

But the thing is, while facts are objectively true or false, a policy choice can't be objectively right. What you often see is, policy masquerading as facts.

"If you accept X then we need to do Y."

"I don't think we should do Y"

"Then you reject facts."

Something everyone seems to have forgotten is that intelligent, well-informed, people of good will can look at the same facts and come up with different policy prescriptions.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#164

Post by claytongulick » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

iso1631 wrote: post #89

tengbretson wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might find that the people you see posting and repeating these lies see the things that you post and repeat as lies.

The biggest problem from the last 10 years is the spread of "everyone's entitled to an opinion". It seems that objective truth no longer exists in the eyes of the population. This is both a cause and a consequence of the defunding of journalism and the change of the profession from news to views.

Erm... defunding journalism by who?

Private funding is making the situation worse.

Public funding is the instrument of authoritarian regimes- state sponsored media.

I think the root cause is lack of objective, critical thinking skills, and the glorification of "how it makes you feel" being more important than "is this reasonable".

I.e. emotion driving reason, rather than reason driving emotion.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#165

Post by hooande » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

kody wrote: post #158

scottlocklin wrote: post #77

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

When reporters on Twitter freak out about the trolls on 4chan like it's some disease infecting our precious wholesome web, I can't help but remember (through my biased lenses of course) when most of the web (that I visited) looked like 4chan. What the folks who think the web is 'degrading' don't seem to realize is how much of a wild west it used to be, and how much corporations have tried to (and somewhat succeeded i…

if most of the web that you visited looked like 4chan, you should have been going to different sites

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#166

Post by at_a_remove » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

Honestly, I think the large-scale nature of communities is a factor.

Moderators now are also more willing to ban accounts that are non-spam. Certain views are "harmful" and apparently people cannot be asked to not react to seeing things, or even ignore people, whether via some tool or just by saying "Oh, it's her again, I'll just skip over that." This places pressure upward on the moderators to make certain people go away.

Folks love gaming the algorithms to decide what will and will not be read and algorithms come into play because of the aforementioned large scales. Face it, the Internet runs on ad money and that can be tight, so everyone gets the bright idea to either let the algorithms do the moderation or to let people who have free time on their hands and the motivation to do it. Usually the motivation is expressed in some seemingly-altruistic manner but it always boils down to pushing their own views. Eventually some views become acceptable, others anathema, and you get that ghastly distillation where more moderate voices are driven off until finally you get a kind of ghost-town.

This is a pretty tough nut to crack from this vantage point.

One of the ways I see out is the admittedly computationally-intensive tack of making the algorithms only affect a user's personal view rather than making it site-wide. You can still run into the echo chamber issue, only in this case it is a bunch of people in their own private speech bubbles in one large chamber.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this because I have watched this sort of thing kill communities for the past thirty years now.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#167

Post by claytongulick » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:44 PM UTC

organsnyder wrote: post #84

tengbretson wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might find that the people you see posting and repeating these lies see the things that you post and repeat as lies.

And one of the sides has to be right. Sometimes the facts are difficult to ascertain, but so many of the lies spread via social media are easily disproved by consulting primary sources.

Even more than this- the desire to silence and destroy those who disagree, sometimes physically.

Some have called this increased polarization.

I see it as a slide towards violent authoritarianism.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#168

Post by ionforce » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:44 PM UTC

More moderation. More value judgements (and actions) need to be taken against content that is deemed unsavory. Bans, etc.

Higher barriers of entry. The right to comment and occupy mind space is given away too easily. Penalize new accounts, start with limited capabilities, disallow short comments, etc.

Highlight exemplary content.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#169

Post by platz » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:45 PM UTC

scottlocklin wrote: post #77

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

Right, It's not a technology problem.

Not everything can be reduced to a technology problem.

This is an American, and even worldwide problem.

Everyone is writing about polarization right now.

Ezra Klein, who I normally loathe, has been doing the podcasting rounds lately about his new polarization book, which has a pragmatic take on the problem.

He doesn't see a way out right now.

    Sean Carroll's Mindscape: Science, Society, Philosophy, Culture, Arts, and Ideas
    Ezra Klein on Politics, Polarization, and Identity

https://pca.st/huei9let

    The Weeds: The road to polarization

https://pca.st/izsley78

According to Ezra, part of the reason we have this now is because our personal identities are now stacked in line with our political identities.

Why this stacking occurs might just be a natural process.

As for the media, It's not only the media's fault.

There was a feedback loop between media and audience.

When media was unbundled from the national model, only slightly more polarized people could be reliable customers and so media had to compete over them, which polarized the media, which polarized the audience etc...

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#170

Post by eropple » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:45 PM UTC

devmunchies wrote: post #116

scottlocklin wrote: post #77

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

I remember the AOL instant messenger days and people being super derogatory and vulgar for kicks. Even xbox live of 2007 was just as vulgar as today. I don't think its that the internet is more toxic, its that we are more sensitive (more easily offended). A strong immune system is the best defense. If it rolls off your back, is it really toxic?

Shitlords don't just "meme". They radicalize themselves and others. I had a friend ask to crash on my couch during GamerGate because a guy on 4chan took a picture of himself with a knife in front of her apartment building and it's the people who aren't shitlords who are the problem here? What's your proposed "immune system" response to that, exactly? Or to an Elliot Rodgers, he who was cheered on by exactly this crowd?

"These people are attempting to incubate a culture where you might get swatted for being vocally not a straight white man, but it is we who are too sensitive." Nah. The problem isn't the people who have the misfortune of being downrange of scumbags, and never is.