Not everyone has an internal monologue • Hacker News Board

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#331

Post by frenchyatwork » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:10 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #314

I have a serious question to people here describing themselves (as I understand it) as thinking in words and whole sentences: How can you think about concepts which cannot be put into words or for which no words exist? Do you have to come up with elaborate verbal descriptions of abstract concepts in your head before you can think about them? If so, don't you think that any verbal description is essentially incomplete…

I think the way that this actually works is that we don't actually think in words and whole sentences, but that words and whole sentences flow from most of our thoughts. We've just become so used to this whole process that it feels like the words and sentences are driving the thoughts.

I'm certainly a "think in whole words and sentences" person, but if I think of it, I also have had moments realization/emotion that I certainly couldn't put into words.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#332

Post by tartoran » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:11 PM UTC

I have a vague internal monologue, sometimes it's almost non-verbal, hard to explain. That isn't to say that I am not aware of my internal thinking, it is mostly abstract/conceptual, visual/sensorial. Having said that, I am somewhat introverted and never felt that expressing my thoughts into words sounded like it was in my head, especially with written word. The more I think the harder words come out. I've toyed with creative writing and I do best when I don't think at all and write whatever comes downstream. I've always been like this or at least I remember I was like this when I was like 7. Sometimes when I am stressed out, I use words to ground myself or find a solution but it's all involuntary. I'd ask myself "what have I learned from this or that" and the answer is like a video playing in my head, with images and sounds but not quite words..

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#333

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:11 PM UTC

findthewords wrote: post #245

natechols wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took me until my mid-20s before I realized that not everyone thought this way.

I have this "condition". I didn't know it was unusual. I was on propecia (hairloss) medication for awhile, and it took the internal monologue away. I'm now off of it because life was dull and lonely without an active imagination. How curious that testosterone derivative hormones could alter brain activity.

I don't talk to myself in my head, except rarely (usually if I'm scolding myself, or trying to do an accent), but I think you'd be entirely wrong to describe me as not having an active imagination.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#334

Post by cat199 » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:12 PM UTC

yesenadam wrote: post #271

TOGoS wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I don't understand when people claim things like "language is required for higher thought" or whatever (no link but I'm sure I've seen that claim numerous times across various articles). We necessarily do plenty of thinking without words. Certainly you can be someone who focuses more on the words or less on the words, and maybe word-based people are naturally better at talking because their thoughts are…

A google came up with this long article from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on the language of thought hypothesis, which seems fascinating. Mentions Turing, NNs etc.. "The language of thought hypothesis (LOTH) proposes that thinking occurs in a mental language. Often called Mentalese, the mental language resembles spoken language in several key respects: it contains words that can combine into sentences; the…

> LOTH emerged gradually through the writings of Augustine, Boethius, Thomas Aquinas, John Duns Scotus, and many others. William of Ockham

Based on the people mentioned, this theory sounds hugely and heavily influenced by western-christian theology, philosophy, and anthropology, which, since we don't 'know' scientifically, is neither good nor bad, but simply one strain of hypothesis. Other religions have other concepts - eastern christianity followed different lines (cf. 'logismoi', palamas, etc), and of course other religions have differing concepts e.g. chakras, etc.

without being an expert at all, it seems to me that at least on a higher than biological level (e.g. 'proto concious'), internal representation is to some extent malleable and based on ones own philosophy and conceptualization, something which some more esoteric or 'symbolic'/'structural' religious groups focus on - and perhaps (or perhaps not) - one representation may or may not be adaptive or maladaptive to our biology or not..

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#335

Post by asciimo » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:14 PM UTC

findthewords wrote: post #293

warent wrote: post #262

This isn't so hard to understand if you've ever meditated. It becomes clearer that the internal monologue is a process that just runs on its own almost endlessly, and the feeling that we control it is mostly just an illusion. You can test this for yourself by trying to find out what your next thought is going to be. You never know until you have it, which indicates that the process is spontaneous and involuntary. I h…

6 years ago I tried relaxing and listen to smooth jazz or something. Being in the moment and just observing my surrounding with hyperfocus was very pleasant. Time felt infinite. Time was now. I have these lapses every now and then, but I wouldn't have it as my new normal. Without your thoughts you only your body, an animal. Language is what expands human sphere of influence beyond what we see, taste and feel. The "No…

It's extremely likely that many non-human animals have similar thoughts. Put another way, it's extremely unlikely that humans have adopted almost all our traits from other animals, except for the inner monologue.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#336

Post by ericmcer » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:15 PM UTC

This doesn't make any sense to me, even his example:

'One person even mentioned that when they do voice overs in movies of people’s thoughts, they “wished that it was real.”'

How can they form the thought 'I wish that was real' if they have no monologue? And to convey that thought they just open their mouth and spew forth a sentence with no knowledge of its shape?

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#337

Post by RIMR » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:15 PM UTC

I feel like I might actually fall somewhere in between.

I can definitely think "in my voice", but I almost always do this when I am reading, writing, or formulating something to say verbally. It is almost always a conscious effort, but it makes sense to me.

I work in networking, and when I am troubleshooting, I absolutely do not think in "words". I think with much larger concepts. To compare my brain to a bunch of Docker containers exchanging compatible datasets for analysis might be overkill, but it's the best comparison I've got.

And when I am brainstorming new ideas, I feel like my thoughts are far more visual. The "concept map" comparison feels right at home here. There might be some inner dialog, but only when I am thinking of how I would explain my ideas to another person.

I recently started a Twitter account to give a stab at being funny online. I found that I am WAY better at being funny when responding to tweets or quote-tweeting people than I ever am just tweeting new thoughts. This is likely because I come up with better content when given a prompt, and rarely think up original thoughts in the English language where I could decide to tweet them for reactions.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#338

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:15 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #107

For myself personally, it depends on what I'm thinking about. Thinking about writing this sentence, I hear each of the words I'm going to type in my head before I type them. However, if I'm working out how to assemble a table, I'm not hearing "And now I screw the leg on" I just abstractly know that's what I'm going to do. I have to imagine that's the case for at least most people. Thinking out complicated abstract co…

I don't necessarily think about all the words, they just appear at the keyboard (I touch type). A bit like if you're speed reading and skip the internal vocalisation, the word is before my mind, but not in a vocal sense. Like when you imagine a square, but don't imagine a picture of one -- or perhaps when you imagine a 5 dimensional hypercube and don't imagine a picture of one (much easier!).

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#339

Post by aaroninsf » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:16 PM UTC

TIL the phrase "internal monologue" is not figurative for the majority of people.

I never "hear a voice" in anything comparable to a literal sensory experience. I can choose to internally "articulate" language that way, with the same sort of effort of choosing/willing to summon a visual image...

...but that is an effort and an act, not a side effect.

Are people hearing themselves think in something like real time???

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#340

Post by mike_ivanov » Thu, Jan 30, 2020, 11:16 PM UTC

ozim wrote: post #285

mike_ivanov wrote: post #229

Yup. "Do you think in English or in Russian?" -- "huh?.. neither". I can force myself to think "in words". However, most of the time it is something that could be described as colors being kind of physically stretched into shapes or even complete pictures. Converting those in words is a laborious process.

Unlike for author I am fascinated by it, because as I remember my whole life I am thinking in words. Maybe because I was reading since quite young age. I can imagine pictures as well, like people who have songs in their minds, I can imagine Rihanna singing "Umbrela" while imagining pictures from music video. I can imagine a lot of concrete things or songs but I cannot draw those or make such music. Only thing I can i…

My earliest memories stretch before I started talking (which I figured out quite late). I remember certain feelings, colors, sounds, smells even after all those years -- even though I had no words for describing them back then. I believe this is how animals see the world.