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Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

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Re: Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

#81
post #9
post #7

> Now many site owners are trying to put technical obstacles to competitors who completely copy their information that is not protected by copyright. For example, ticket prices, product lots, open user profiles, and so on. Some sites consider this information “their own”, and consider web scraping as “theft”. Legally, this is not the case, which is now officially enshrined in the US. Does this mean we can now scrape…

Youtube videos are definitely protected by copyright, though.

In theory, right?

See the South Park WWITB issue.

I believe South Park used a videoclip from youtube, and Youtube’s ContentID system removed the video South Park had used, because Youtube considered it a violation of South Park’s copyright.

Re: Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

#82

"HiQ only takes information from public LinkedIn profiles. By definition, any member of the public has the right to access this information. Most importantly, the appeals court also upheld a lower court ruling that prohibits LinkedIn from interfering with hiQ’s web scraping of its site." Surely I'm not reading this correctly. This would seem to suggest that websites are not legally allowed to prevent bots from crawli…

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that the data is actually owned by LinkedIn users, and they expressed that they want their data to be publicly available?

Re: Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

#83

"HiQ only takes information from public LinkedIn profiles. By definition, any member of the public has the right to access this information. Most importantly, the appeals court also upheld a lower court ruling that prohibits LinkedIn from interfering with hiQ’s web scraping of its site." Surely I'm not reading this correctly. This would seem to suggest that websites are not legally allowed to prevent bots from crawli…

It's because previously public information became private. They can't do that apparently.

Re: Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

#84

"HiQ only takes information from public LinkedIn profiles. By definition, any member of the public has the right to access this information. Most importantly, the appeals court also upheld a lower court ruling that prohibits LinkedIn from interfering with hiQ’s web scraping of its site." Surely I'm not reading this correctly. This would seem to suggest that websites are not legally allowed to prevent bots from crawli…

> Lots of sites have ToS preventing such things, are those legally void now? Are captchas on public pages illegal, even if you request the page 8000 times in a second?

ToS are subservient to the law; you can (probably) terminate a service account from a user that breaks your ToS, but if the user does not have a service account (as is the case for HiQ, it doesn't seem they were using accounts for it), then your ToS does not apply, since you've technically not entered a binding legal contract with them.

> This is almost weirder. If LinkedIn wanted to force users to sign in to view profile info, would they be not allowed to do that because some company had signed a contract that implicitly assumed access to that data? If someone writes a web scraper for my site, and I unknowingly change my site in a way that breaks that scraper, can a court force me to revert the change?

IANAL, but I believe that'd fall on intent, and intent is often difficult to prove at a personal level, but not necessarily at a company level. If your intent for putting up barriers that happen to impact scraping, whatever they may be, was indeed to knowingly prevent scraping from a particular company, then you may be liable under this decision. This is the only part of the decision I'm torn on, since it's a bit messy to really prove such things. I'd be much more comfortable with allowing companies to take whatever measures they feel necessary to prevent scraping, and also allowing scrapers to legally circumvent those measures without threat of prosecution, assuming they didn't actually hack into anything.

Re: Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

#85
post #36

German copyright has the concept of a "Datenbankwerk" (since the 90s). E.g. the telephone book contains lots of boring facts that are each in themselves not copyrightable. However the collection in itself is copyrightable, as it required substantial effort to create. It seems odd that US copyright law wouldn't have a similar provision, or that it doesn't apply here?

IANAL, but I think the US does have something similar. In the US, you can take works from the public domain, and then perform some sort of work, ex: restoration of a film, and then copyright that work. The difference being that someone else can use/release their own version of the same content, but they cannot use the work you did just because the content comes from the public domain.

Re: Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

#86
post #11

The toxicity towards web-scraping is really what makes me lose hope in the current web. People want their data to be public and all of the benefits that comes with public data but then they want to chose who gets to see it - it's a complete and utter paradox. This precedent doesn't really mean much but is definitely step in the right direction.

One of my clients is involved in property tax collection and reporting. Property Tax records are public info, and their website allows looking up the records for any property without a login. However, the data behind this website it the _source_ of the public records, and not the public records themselves (which would be local government databases). For years now we've been in an arms race with someone using a botnet…

Can you just put it behind a CDN that protects you?

Re: Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

#87
post #67

"HiQ only takes information from public LinkedIn profiles. By definition, any member of the public has the right to access this information. Most importantly, the appeals court also upheld a lower court ruling that prohibits LinkedIn from interfering with hiQ’s web scraping of its site." Surely I'm not reading this correctly. This would seem to suggest that websites are not legally allowed to prevent bots from crawli…

Your second point is interesting. I suspect the contract between hiQ and some company is that hiQ provides info on public profiles, and if LinkedIn removes all public profiles by requiring a login the contract would become moot. Just the same if I was to change my profile settings from public to private, hiQ wouldn't be in breach of their contract (nor would I).

Scrapping should either be legal or not. The fact that you have a contract to sell the content you assumed it's legal to scrape, should not matter. Too bad if you lose money

Re: Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

#88
post #55
post #36

German copyright has the concept of a "Datenbankwerk" (since the 90s). E.g. the telephone book contains lots of boring facts that are each in themselves not copyrightable. However the collection in itself is copyrightable, as it required substantial effort to create. It seems odd that US copyright law wouldn't have a similar provision, or that it doesn't apply here?

It does, and the result is that phone books and maps get fictional entries inserted in order to prove copying -- because it is perfectly legal to do your own work to amass the same data set. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_entry

Like a Paper town or that time that Genius caught Google stealing their lyrics by playing with straight and curly quotes and writing a tool that watermarked songs by interchanging those quotes on the site. It was brilliant.

Re: Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

#89
post #11

The toxicity towards web-scraping is really what makes me lose hope in the current web. People want their data to be public and all of the benefits that comes with public data but then they want to chose who gets to see it - it's a complete and utter paradox. This precedent doesn't really mean much but is definitely step in the right direction.

Sure. My data is still my data, and if I publish it on my platform for free, that still shouldn't automatically give you the right to copy the data and provide on your platform. It's basically the same as a TV broadcasting a film for free, and then going after you legally if you recorded that film and uploaded it to your website.

It's not the same thing at all. The film is broadcast without re-transmission rights.

Re: Congrats! Web scraping is legal! (US precedent)

#90
post #11

The toxicity towards web-scraping is really what makes me lose hope in the current web. People want their data to be public and all of the benefits that comes with public data but then they want to chose who gets to see it - it's a complete and utter paradox. This precedent doesn't really mean much but is definitely step in the right direction.

One of my clients is involved in property tax collection and reporting. Property Tax records are public info, and their website allows looking up the records for any property without a login. However, the data behind this website it the _source_ of the public records, and not the public records themselves (which would be local government databases). For years now we've been in an arms race with someone using a botnet…

Wouldn't the solution be to offer a streamlined download (maybe even as a torrent if you're worried about bandwidth) of all the data then?
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