Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#101

Post by blessmyheart » Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 4:10 AM UTC

wang_li wrote: post #92

altacc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not you believe in helping others is a personal choice. Most societies across the globe and throughout history have recognised the need for community & solidarity in order to survive & thrive. > Such parents have shown they have no limiting factor... You make it sound like there’s an infinite loop of childbirth which will eventually use up every last dollar in the world, but that’s not what happens in real…

>You make it sound like there’s an infinite loop of childbirth which will eventually use up every last dollar in the world, It's not infinite, but we cannot provide every child in the world with the same standard of living as that had by the average Norwegian, for example. And given that a couple chose to give birth to a kid even though they could easily see that they can't provide for the child and society can't pro…

Let's look at this as someone from a higher socioeconomic level than you may do. Maybe you should have taken having a child more seriously. Anyone who decided to have children (or had an unplanned pregnancy) six years ago should have been smart enough to have saved up more money so that a single unplanned $10,000 expense would not wreck his child's academic chances.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#102

Post by dang » Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 4:11 AM UTC

albreth wrote: post #34

ssully wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is possibly the worst thing I have ever read on HN.

Sadly, I’ve seen much worse, and the mods here don’t do anything about it.

If you're going to make a claim like that, you should supply links so readers can make up their own minds. Most of the time people make inflammatory and linkless claims about moderation, the real story turns out to be something quite different.

An even likelier possibility is that we just didn't see whatever comments you're referring to. We don't come close to seeing everything that gets posted here.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#103

Post by dang » Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 4:14 AM UTC

ssully wrote: post #32

mynameishere wrote: post #22

that are more efficient at reducing poverty...an unconditional cash allowance for households with children. The opposite--a cash allowance for poor people who agree to be sterilized--would also reduce poverty, and a single generation of such payments would have a lot of staying power. Now, I wouldn't expect the author of the article to desire such a policy, but it would work if all they are trying to do is reduce pov…

This is possibly the worst thing I have ever read on HN.

"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#104

Post by plutonicks » Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 5:20 AM UTC

altacc wrote: post #3

In discussions about low income families I often see somebody comment along the lines of blaming the parents for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want. This is used as a reason not to provide any social support to those families as they see it as rewarding bad behaviour. But these children didn't make those choices and they now exist in their circumstances through no faul…

Unfortunately the resources to resolve the issue are rival and limited.

This ultimately means that giving to the poor deprives another.

The question then becomes should the parents and children of parents who make more sustainable choices be forced to support the parents and children those who don't. This is generally the current state of our welfare system. Tax burden and impact is predominantly on the middle class.

The result is dysgenic, i.e. Better outcomes are punished, worse outcomes are rewarded.

Its also a classic trolley problem, and thus both action (wealth distribution) and inaction are immoral.

The next argument will be that we should lift everyone to a minimum standard. However this still fails the test above and fails to realise that wealth is unfortunately relative.

Couple that with the dead-weight loss of the tax system and you actually create a spiral of poverty that starts to consume all except the richest.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#105

Post by plutonicks » Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 5:23 AM UTC

wang_li wrote: post #94

Frondo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you justify tapping the productivity of a Boeing working in Renton... Well, the direct answer is: these are all Americans, and all pay some kind of tax to their city, county, state, and ultimately the country, in theory so they can draw on the shared resources of the nation. That's how you justify supporting the kid in Mississippi and not the kid in Cambodia. As for rationally holding the belief that people…

We don't live in a post scarcity society. As such it's not possible to support every kid to a high standard of living unless you limit the number of kids. I also want to point out that they don't pay taxes to their city, county, state, and country. There have been several studies by the CBO[0 - see the chart on page 31] that show that the lower 60% of households are not net tax payers at the federal level to such an…

Great arguments, the number of people in society lacking basic economic understanding is astounding.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#106

Post by asdff » Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 6:44 AM UTC

SkyBelow wrote: post #55

altacc wrote: post #3

In discussions about low income families I often see somebody comment along the lines of blaming the parents for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want. This is used as a reason not to provide any social support to those families as they see it as rewarding bad behaviour. But these children didn't make those choices and they now exist in their circumstances through no faul…

I think one problem is that there isn't a real distinction between childhood poverty and poverty. There is no way to solve childhood poverty that doesn't also improve the parents' situation. As such, any solution to poverty then enables, for a certain segment of the population, a minimum level of poverty that they can choose to not fall below by having children. Think about it like how the courts view jury nullificat…

You are talking about going above the baseline poverty level, but right now having a child is a strain (not just in poverty, but broadly across the working class as well), when that could at least be made inconsequential to your personal economic situation.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#107

Post by asdff » Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 6:48 AM UTC

hmschreck wrote: post #19

altacc wrote: post #3

In discussions about low income families I often see somebody comment along the lines of blaming the parents for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want. This is used as a reason not to provide any social support to those families as they see it as rewarding bad behaviour. But these children didn't make those choices and they now exist in their circumstances through no faul…

More and more research is showing that poverty has a severe impact on the brain, and left unchecked it can become nearly unbreakable. Many of the decisions made by impoverished people are either somewhat sensible for their situation in the short-term (e.g., asking a 16 or 17 year old child to drop out and start working) or are sensible when viewed through certain forms of skewed perspectives (e.g., spending a small w…

Or perhaps some decisions are just depressingly sensible given the odds of actually escaping poverty. Having your near dropout 16 year old enter the workforce is perhaps a better bet for their future than letting them drop out and associate with malevolent role models who prey on kids like this.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#108

Post by asdff » Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 6:58 AM UTC

rdlecler1 wrote: post #7

Housing is an enormous tax, and rent seeking just transfers money from the poor to the rich. Rather than giving everyone money, I would prefer to see a market solution where we greatly lower the costs for things at the bottom of Maslow’s pyramid.

How do you lower the costs when the market is being successfully cornered? The people striking down housing density bills are the people who stand to profit the most from their actions. The market can't be trusted to be benevolent and leave money on the table.

There needs to be a large scale public working class housing build, taking profit margin out of the equation. The market hasn't built new working class housing stock since the roll out of suburbia nearly a century ago, and can't be expected to do so anytime soon if it stands to amass profit from the status quo.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#109

Post by asdff » Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 7:07 AM UTC

nessus42 wrote: post #89

Ididntdothis wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was more thinking about reducing existing subsidies for unhealthy foods like sugar and corn syrup. That stuff is cheap partially because of subsidies so it gets added to everything. When I go shopping for example apples are quite expensive compared to a bag of frozen French fries. Lettuce is also very expensive. We could change this with smarter subsidies.

Fresh fruit can surely be expensive. I doubt that frozen fruit is that bad. Maybe more than frozen french fries, but if you can cook frozen french fries, I should think that you can also cook beans. Regarding corn syrup being put into everything, this seems to be a much more general health issue than for the poor alone. Obesity in the US is an epidemic that is much more widespread than amongst just the poor. I agree…

Part of it is also the time it takes to eat healthy. Cooking for me is 20 minutes cooking and prepping, 20 minutes eating, and 20 minutes cleaning up.

I have the time to spend an hour feeding myself dinner every day, plus the time for the other meals. Not a lot of people do, however.

If you are working two jobs and have to make two shifts in a day, it's a lot easier to just grab food from the McDonalds you were passing by anyway, cram a handful into your mouth on your way home, drop a happy meal in front of the kids before changing out then in to your uniform, and heading to the next job across town, especially if the bus is slow.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#110

Post by asdff » Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 7:13 AM UTC

yters wrote: post #51

What does poverty mean in our world? I would think the poorest person in any western nation has more money and access to more resources than pretty much anyone in prior history. Also goes for many developing nations, too. Is there something else going on with poverty besides only amount of money on hand?

Well, there are about 60,000 people in LA county who can answer that question for you, and probably another half a million who are a couple hundred dollars or less away from reckoning with the harsh truths about that question.