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Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

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Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#141
post #45
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spotify's impact on our culture is "People like to stream music. Here is a service that lets them do so.". You didn't need the Media Lab to come up with that idea, and indeed, it didn't.

Yeah OPs comment is some sort of idealistic historical revision that ignores the fact that there were a myriad of streaming services that predated Spotify. It's a pretty weird thing flex about too. Like isn't streaming music based on preferences pretty easy?

> Yeah OPs comment is some sort of idealistic historical revision that ignores the fact that there were a myriad of streaming services that predated Spotify.

That may be true, but Negroponte was proselytizing streaming media back in the early 90s, long before anything like Spotify or Netflix were actually practical. Did all this hot air have any effect? I have no idea. But from where I was sitting, he was definitely pushing hard for something that others were not at the time.

Also, the first music recommendation service I ever heard of was started at the Media Lab. It was called Ringo, and you'd email it a list of your favorite bands, and it would then email you back recommendations for other music you might like. Ringo was implemented using some sort of statistical correlation amongst other people's lists of favorite bands.

Ringo was eventually spun off into a company called Firefly which ran a music community website that used this technology. It didn't do so well, though, and was eventually bought by Microsoft, which shut down the website about a year later.

> Like isn't streaming music based on preferences pretty easy?

Sure, but I don't think that doing it very well is. I mean they typically do an okay job, but I've yet to find one that just blows me away with its ability to find music for me that I will love.

Yes, I'm introduced to some good new music this way. But I also have to listen to a lot of dreck too.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#142

I was a grad student at the Media Lab in its early days. I was attracted not by Negroponte but by the people he managed to attract: at the time, that included Marvin Minsky, Alan Kay, and Stewart Brand, as well as some less famous but truly brilliant people from the arts (Ricky Leacock, Muriel Cooper) and sciences (Steve Benton, inventor of white-light holography). It was an exciting place, but there was a hollowness…

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Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#143
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah OPs comment is some sort of idealistic historical revision that ignores the fact that there were a myriad of streaming services that predated Spotify. It's a pretty weird thing flex about too. Like isn't streaming music based on preferences pretty easy?

> Yeah OPs comment is some sort of idealistic historical revision that ignores the fact that there were a myriad of streaming services that predated Spotify. That may be true, but Negroponte was proselytizing streaming media back in the early 90s, long before anything like Spotify or Netflix were actually practical. Did all this hot air have any effect? I have no idea. But from where I was sitting, he was definitely…

In terms of mass-market success, goodness of recommendations is like, #12 on the list of must-have features for a (streaming) music service.

#1 is "It must have all of the music", which is really a lawyer problem, not an engineering problem.

(#2-#11 are just variations of "No no, I mean all the music", "Does it have really old music, like X?" "What about really niche music like Y?" "Oh, oh, what about Z? I bet it doesn't have Z.")

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#144

"If I hadn't snubbed Jobs and Woz, I might've been the Jef Raskin of Apple" That quote made me look up who Ted Nelson was. His most notable project that I see is Xanadu which Wired described as "the longest-running vaporware project in the history of computing". Started in 1960, it didn't ship a working version until 2014. I don't disagree that the Media Lab often overhypes things. But you need to be able to sell you…

> But you need to be able to sell your ideas and get people excited about them to have an impact on the world. This is true. But there's a notional dial I think about. It's labeled "effort distribution". The left end says "substance" and the right end says "hype". I've come to accept that 0% hype is a setting that mostly doesn't work. You need to make some people aware of your work, or you'll never get word of mouth.…

There is also a social equivalent, which is highly regional/cultural: How much do we talk ourselves up, versus how modest are we?

If you talk like you're the hottest thing since sliced cheese in some places, you're looked upon as an arrogant braggart; if you don't in other places, it is assumed you are completely incompetent.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#145
post #121

My response: Maybe, but so what? This was rambling and smelled of bitterness. I especially didn’t like his suggestion that he “could have been” Jef Raskin because their viewpoints were “essentially the same” or whatever. Really?

I like Ted, and enjoy watching his rants, but when hearing that I couldn't help but think of Uncle Rico: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL-VX3WbA9U

Yeh yep indeed. I didn’t make that connection, but for me what came to mind was Dustin Hoffman’s failed artist character in the Meyerowitz Stories. Not identical but he too laments “not playing the game”. The scene at the beginning where he simultaneously disdains his more successful colleague while also relishing being mentioned by him is just great.

And while I’m on the topic of Baumbach movies, there’s a scene in the Squid and the whale where the kid gets in trouble for performing a Pink Floyd song at a high school talent show and claiming it as his own. When he’s rightly brought to task for it, he says something like “I could have written it, it’s a simple song” to which he is told “but you didn’t” (paraphrasing, it’s been a while). There’s an echo of that here too.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah OPs comment is some sort of idealistic historical revision that ignores the fact that there were a myriad of streaming services that predated Spotify. That may be true, but Negroponte was proselytizing streaming media back in the early 90s, long before anything like Spotify or Netflix were actually practical. Did all this hot air have any effect? I have no idea. But from where I was sitting, he was definitely…

In terms of mass-market success, goodness of recommendations is like, #12 on the list of must-have features for a (streaming) music service. #1 is "It must have all of the music", which is really a lawyer problem, not an engineering problem. (#2-#11 are just variations of "No no, I mean all the music", "Does it have really old music, like X?" "What about really niche music like Y?" "Oh, oh, what about Z? I bet it doe…

> In terms of mass-market success, goodness of recommendations is like, #12 on the list of must-have features

Well, maybe that's why they generally are not so great.

On the other hand, Pandora has traditionally existed with playing music that you'll like, but didn't explicitly select, as its reason for existence. Maybe that's why it seems to do a better job at this than other streaming services.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#148
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ted's needlessly authoritarian on implementation details, down to very specific details in file formats and how the components interact with each other using protocols that simply do not work. For instance, he was insisting on ASCII only, byte addressed implementation of a cross referencing system with me in 2014 for the Xanadu implementation you mentioned. I couldn't convince him that multibyte encoding systems were…

wow posts like this are what make HN still valuable. This was a really interesting look into this situation.

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Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#149
Ted mentioned "self revealing" interfaces and attributed the term to Klaus Landsberg. Who is that? Did I hear the name wrong, or misspell it? Is this him?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Landsberg

I agree 100% with Ted's take on self revealing user interfaces:

>Now, I happen to be in the school of Jeff Raskin, you know. As I said, my interface slogan was "Making things look right, feel good, and come across clearly." And if I hadn't snubbed Jobs and Woz and, uh, what's his name at PC '76, I might have been the Jeff Raskin of Apple, instead of Jeff Raskin. Because essentially, Jeff Raskin and I have the same point: making things look clean, and simple, and self revealing. That's a term I got from Klaus Landsberg (sp?) by the way. The term "self revealing". The term "intuitive" is stupid. Because, is a mouse "intuitive"? You look at it, and oooh, oooh, oooh. But the moment you see it work, it has revealed itself. So it's "self revealing", is the term. Pac-Man is another very nice example of a "self revealing" piece of software. I've often used it as an example of how software ought to work. Because you learn the rules within three quarters, putting three quarters into the machine. That was then. And could, after then, gradually pick up on other aspects. Whereas, it is in the interest of companies like Microsoft, and alas now Apple, to make things entangling and unclear, because that way you become committed to them. Like Microsoft Word. There has to be a Microsoft Word expert in your office in order to do all the dingy little things that people want to do: formatting text.

That’s the perfect term to describe how self revealing pie menus support rehearsal: by popping up to lead the way when you click without moving, and then follow you when you mouse ahead after clicking, and finally get out of your way when you gesture quickly without pausing.

https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-design-and-implementation...

>The Design and Implementation of Pie Menus

>They’re Fast, Easy, and Self-Revealing.

>Originally published in Dr. Dobb’s Journal, Dec. 1991.

>For the novice, pie menus are easy because they are a self-revealing gestural interface: They show what you can do and direct you how to do it. By clicking and popping up a pie menu, looking at the labels, moving the cursor in the desired direction, then clicking to make a selection, you learn the menu and practice the gesture to “mark ahead” (“mouse ahead” in the case of a mouse, “wave ahead” in the case of a dataglove). With a little practice, it becomes quite easy to mark ahead even through nested pie menus.

>For the expert, they’re efficient because — without even looking — you can move in any direction, and mark ahead so fast that the menu doesn’t even pop up. Only when used more slowly like a traditional menu, does a pie menu pop up on the screen, to reveal the available selections.

>Most importantly, novices soon become experts, because every time you select from a pie menu, you practice the motion to mark ahead, so you naturally learn to do it by feel! As Jaron Lanier of VPL Research has remarked, “The mind may forget, but the body remembers.” Pie menus take advantage of the body’s ability to remember muscle motion and direction, even when the mind has forgotten the corresponding symbolic labels.

https://medium.com/@donhopkins/pie-menus-936fed383ff1

>Pie Menus: A 30 Year Retrospective

>By Don Hopkins, Ground Up Software, May 15, 2018.

>Pie menus should support an important technique called “Mouse Ahead Display Preemption”. Pie menus either lead, follow, or get out of the way. When you don’t know them, they lead you. When you are familiar with them, they follow. And when you’re really familiar with them, they get out of the way, you don’t see them. Unless you stop. And in which case, it then pops up the whole tree.

Re: Ted versus The Media Lab [video]

#150
post #45
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spotify's impact on our culture is "People like to stream music. Here is a service that lets them do so.". You didn't need the Media Lab to come up with that idea, and indeed, it didn't.

Yeah OPs comment is some sort of idealistic historical revision that ignores the fact that there were a myriad of streaming services that predated Spotify. It's a pretty weird thing flex about too. Like isn't streaming music based on preferences pretty easy?

> Like isn't streaming music based on preferences pretty easy?

That must be why Spotify constantly fills my once useful “discover weekly” feed with what I would describe as “Ambient Indian Buddhist Trip-Hop”. Not really what I wanted at all. Though this week it seems to be “Ambient Irish Bagpipe”, which is also not at all what I wanted.

So, no... I think Spotify has a long ways to go to learn how to give me what I want...

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