Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#31

Post by SamReidHughes » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #13

rdlecler1 wrote: post #7

Housing is an enormous tax, and rent seeking just transfers money from the poor to the rich. Rather than giving everyone money, I would prefer to see a market solution where we greatly lower the costs for things at the bottom of Maslow’s pyramid.

It appears that we have plenty of money to subsidize farming for both ethanol and tariffs, seems like we could go a step further and work on greatly reducing the cost of food. We would need to do so in such a way that all of the funds are not just going to massive corporations that just swallow the funds, something we don't really seem to be able to do currently.

The cost of food has been doing a great job of declining all on its own.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#32

Post by ssully » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

mynameishere wrote: post #22

that are more efficient at reducing poverty...an unconditional cash allowance for households with children. The opposite--a cash allowance for poor people who agree to be sterilized--would also reduce poverty, and a single generation of such payments would have a lot of staying power. Now, I wouldn't expect the author of the article to desire such a policy, but it would work if all they are trying to do is reduce pov…

This is possibly the worst thing I have ever read on HN.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#33

Post by ben_w » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 9:57 PM UTC

tomnipotent wrote: post #12

rdlecler1 wrote: post #7

Housing is an enormous tax, and rent seeking just transfers money from the poor to the rich. Rather than giving everyone money, I would prefer to see a market solution where we greatly lower the costs for things at the bottom of Maslow’s pyramid.

This. I grew up on welfare, and I can't tell you how often my mom would talk about section 8 housing and how that would change everything. Having to move was my parents greatest nightmare - they would barely afford day-to-day things, nonetheless first/last/deposit.

As a landlord [0], I totally agree that housing is overpriced and society can and should make it affordable for all.

[0] not American, so I had to Google “section 8 housing”

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#34

Post by albreth » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

ssully wrote: post #32

mynameishere wrote: post #22

that are more efficient at reducing poverty...an unconditional cash allowance for households with children. The opposite--a cash allowance for poor people who agree to be sterilized--would also reduce poverty, and a single generation of such payments would have a lot of staying power. Now, I wouldn't expect the author of the article to desire such a policy, but it would work if all they are trying to do is reduce pov…

This is possibly the worst thing I have ever read on HN.

Sadly, I’ve seen much worse, and the mods here don’t do anything about it.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#35

Post by mjevans » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 9:59 PM UTC

edmundsauto wrote: post #25

lopmotr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't correct the problems caused by making the worse choice of having children with that unsuitable parent in the first place.

What could possibly correct that mistake?

A systemic answer is required to improve this case. I very much doubt there is any single magic bullet thing that will make the problem better.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#36

Post by ailideex » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:02 PM UTC

altacc wrote: post #3

In discussions about low income families I often see somebody comment along the lines of blaming the parents for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want. This is used as a reason not to provide any social support to those families as they see it as rewarding bad behaviour. But these children didn't make those choices and they now exist in their circumstances through no faul…

> In discussions about low income families I often see somebody comment along the lines of blaming the parents for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want.

So just to be clear on some points before I get accused of holding positions I do not hold. I am all for helping children who were let down by their parents. I don't think they should be condemned. I also grew up very poor, my parents had to go into debt to buy basic necessities and I still have to support my parents financially and will likely always have to do this.

When it comes to this issue, you need to pick a lane and stay in it. Either people have agency and are responsible for their actions and ultimate responsibility lays with the parents - or people do not have agency and nobody is responsible for anything and concepts like democracy makes no sense.

I personally pick the lane that people do have agency and do bear ultimate responsibility for their actions. I do make exception for those who are severely mentally ill but this is not the root of poverty.

Consequently, while social support for those who were let down by their parents is good - this alone cannot fix all problems. Maybe in a place like Norway with very low unemployment it is enough, but it will never be able solve the problems in places like South Africa where the unemployment is ~30% (calculated in the same way as unemployment reported for US and EU economies is calculated).

So sure, lets help the children - but lets stop making excuses for those who put the children in that position to begin with. I don't think it is okay to run cover for absolutely horrible human beings who bring children into this world that they cannot adequately provide for.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#37

Post by mjevans » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:02 PM UTC

rdlecler1 wrote: post #7

Housing is an enormous tax, and rent seeking just transfers money from the poor to the rich. Rather than giving everyone money, I would prefer to see a market solution where we greatly lower the costs for things at the bottom of Maslow’s pyramid.

For all 'basic needs' there should guaranteed competition in the market. Either the government directly (or more likely) low / not profit companies that get created by prospective business leaders with government backed loans for plans believed to benefit the public good.

This would be much less crazy than it sounds if we also required open financial records and publicly registered contracts for all businesses.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#38

Post by ben_w » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #30

wonderwonder wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

absolutely, same boat. I have to think that my kids just not having to listen to their parents constantly fight about money like I did has to go a long way. Going to the store with friends and your parents have to pay with food stamps carries a certain stigma. I had good parents who always worked hard (not necessarily smart) and did the best they could for us, so I have no other complaints but I was definitely very a…

Why were they fighting if they were good parents? My parents were poor but didn't fight. They just didn't buy much and they both accepted that and tried hard to improve things.

“Fighting” can cover a large range of actions, from arguing to violence.

If it’s the former, I can understand — e.g. frustration from a personality difference where one of them wanted to spend money on something nice so that life wasn’t just an endless pointless slog of dull grey, while the other wanted to save the money for an emergency.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#39

Post by nessus42 » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:04 PM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #16

wonderwonder wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears that we have plenty of money to subsidize farming for both ethanol and tariffs, seems like we could go a step further and work on greatly reducing the cost of food. We would need to do so in such a way that all of the funds are not just going to massive corporations that just swallow the funds, something we don't really seem to be able to do currently.

We have subsidize the right food though. Otherwise obesity and associated diseases will keep growing.

Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I find it hard to believe that the cost of healthy food is a terrible problem these days with poverty. (In the US.) Housing, heating, clothing, education, living in a community that fosters wellbeing, etc., sure!

But food? Rice and beans is one of the healthiest things you can eat, and it's very cheap.

Okay, well rice and beans might bore you to death, but you won't starve. Add some frozen vegetables and fruit and I should think that most people would do just fine nutritionally.

Of course, a lot of people might not know this, and that could be a problem.

Re: Poverty hurts children in ways we're beginning to understand

#40

Post by Justsignedup » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

altacc wrote: post #3

In discussions about low income families I often see somebody comment along the lines of blaming the parents for making bad choices and choosing to have children they couldn't afford/care for/want. This is used as a reason not to provide any social support to those families as they see it as rewarding bad behaviour. But these children didn't make those choices and they now exist in their circumstances through no faul…

Hey, its the Biblical way.

Okay stupid comments aside... I had a convo with a guy arguing that "I don't have kids and shouldn't pay to support the kids of others. If you can't afford to send kids to school don't have em."

Nobody thinks: "Those unschooled kids will then grab a knife or a gun and go and rob you or your very well educated kids out of desperation and end up killing occasionally." also... "why are you pro having a lifelong torturing of kids?"

People really lack empathy for the pain of others, as if their suffering will lessen one's own.