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The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

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Re: The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

#41

Post by austincheney »

Iv wrote: post #3

Does it make sense to talk about the Chinese civilization like a single continuous civilization? That's a bit like saying Italy's civilization dates from the first Etruscan settlements or that French civilization is as old as the megaliths in Brittany. I am a bit suspicious of these claims as they are central to Chinese nationalism. In order to hold them you have to disregard the several periods where the country was…

Continuous civilization only means the defining characteristics of civilization remain unbroken through regime change.

Only China and India have had continuous civilization from the ancient to the present. That remains true even though the Yuan dynasty were foreign invaders.

Contrast that to the Saxon invasion of Britain or the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs or the gothic conquest of Italy.

Re: The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

#42

Post by m-app »

Related to this, reading some Chinese science-fiction (mainly Ken Liu's translations of full books and collections of short stories) has made me realize the gap in knowledge I have with regards to Chinese history. In some of the time travel-related stories some dynasties and other historical events are mentioned as easily as we do our Roman or Greek histories for example, which of course makes sense.

Does anyone have any recommendations on books covering the major Chinese historical eras? This article and the diagram in it are a great start that I would love to dig deeper into.

Re: The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

#43

Post by cygx »

geowwy wrote: post #36
bra4you wrote: post #14

"Until the Opium War of 1840–42 the European merchants and voyagers who reached the distant land of China had looked upon the Chinese with a good deal of awe as a people of superior culture." Bullshit and Chinese Propaganda with their "5000 years old culture". 5000 years ago we are talking about bones inscribed with precursors of the Chinese writing system. Not bad, but compare this to the Pyramids at the same time?…

> Around the year 0 the Chinese culture was en par with the level of western > culture and technology - speak Rome. > > Only during the middle ages the west fell so far beyond and Chinese had indeed > a superior level of technology, knowledge and administration. Things reversed > again with the industrial revolution and the center of industrial GDP moved to > the west again. I think you've got shifting definitions of…

That's not the impression I get from https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/byzantine-philosophy/

Quote:

There was never in Byzantium anything resembling the autonomous universities of the Latin West. Higher education was designed to train officials of the state and church, not masters of the arts and sciences.

edit: I guess that's a reference to later developments, though...

Re: The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

#44

Post by elfexec »

bra4you wrote: post #14

"Until the Opium War of 1840–42 the European merchants and voyagers who reached the distant land of China had looked upon the Chinese with a good deal of awe as a people of superior culture." Bullshit and Chinese Propaganda with their "5000 years old culture". 5000 years ago we are talking about bones inscribed with precursors of the Chinese writing system. Not bad, but compare this to the Pyramids at the same time?…

> Bullshit

It wasn't bullshit. Generally, the merchants and voyagers who reached china were in awe. It was why europeans wanted to get to china in the first place and not the other way around. Even decades after the opium wars, europeans were still in awe even while burning and pillaging.

"... I have done well. The [local] people are very civil, but I think the grandees hate us, as they must after what we did the Palace. You can scarcely imagine the beauty and magnificence of the places we burnt. It made one's heart sore to burn them; in fact, these places were so large, and we were so pressed for time, that we could not plunder them carefully. Quantities of gold ornaments were burnt, considered as brass. It was wretchedly demoralising work for an army. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Summer_Palace

Now that the roles are reversed, it's the chinese that are in awe of us. It's why they send so many students, merchants, etc to the US. For a few hundreds years, it was europeans who were as eager to go to china as chinese are now eager to get to the West.

> Chinese Propaganda with their "5000 years old culture".

Yeah, the continuous 5000 years is really a stretch. If they have 5000 years, then might as well say europe has 5000 years or more.

> If you can really talk about a "continuous civilization" for 5000, 3500 or even 2000 years is doubtful.

Even 1000 is doubtful as the mongols conquered china for a while there.

> I am skeptical about the "Chinese Century"

We are 2 decades in and nowhere close to a "Chinese Century". This century will most likely become a multipolar century.

Re: The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

#45

Post by osullivj »

ekianjo wrote: post #39
H_Pylori wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article was written before communism. I've heard from different accounts that communism has had a deleterious effect on people's manner. I don't know if this is true or not, but it's a reasonable explanation.

> communism has had a deleterious effect on people's manner. Thats an understatement. Look at the history with the Great Leap Forward and how it changed chinese culture forever.

Yes - "bourgeois" manners were rejected as affectation.

Re: The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

#46

Post by bra4you »

geowwy wrote: post #36
bra4you wrote: post #14

"Until the Opium War of 1840–42 the European merchants and voyagers who reached the distant land of China had looked upon the Chinese with a good deal of awe as a people of superior culture." Bullshit and Chinese Propaganda with their "5000 years old culture". 5000 years ago we are talking about bones inscribed with precursors of the Chinese writing system. Not bad, but compare this to the Pyramids at the same time?…

> Around the year 0 the Chinese culture was en par with the level of western > culture and technology - speak Rome. > > Only during the middle ages the west fell so far beyond and Chinese had indeed > a superior level of technology, knowledge and administration. Things reversed > again with the industrial revolution and the center of industrial GDP moved to > the west again. I think you've got shifting definitions of…

I think there is little doubt that Rome was en pare with China. I don't see me shifting definitions of the West. You could argue that I switch between Egypt and Rome. While not the same culture, they are interconnected and influenced each other (visit the Vatican if you have any doubts).

I looked up "ancient history": "Although the ending date of ancient history is disputed, some Western scholars use the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD"

China was far inferier compared to Egypt of that time. For now, lets consider Egypt be part of my "western" argument.

So when between the Highs of Egypt and the rise of Rome was China superior in technology? I admit, out of my head, that Asia may have had the far greater GDP product based on the number ob people. But I don't see any Asian or Chinese superiority.

"with the West exploding out of nowhere." Ignoring the Cultures and Empires of Egypt and Rome is a bit of a stretch.

"But that is probably just a blip, and in the grand scheme we will probably end up with China and the Near East rising again."

Doubt it. The Chinese culture has tremendous strength. But, as often, it comes with tremendous weaknesses.

Since we talk about empires. I know what Rome, what the Soviet Union, what Islam, what "America" had or has to offer. What does China has to offer?

Re: The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

#47

Post by bra4you »

brailsafe wrote: post #25
bra4you wrote: post #14

"Until the Opium War of 1840–42 the European merchants and voyagers who reached the distant land of China had looked upon the Chinese with a good deal of awe as a people of superior culture." Bullshit and Chinese Propaganda with their "5000 years old culture". 5000 years ago we are talking about bones inscribed with precursors of the Chinese writing system. Not bad, but compare this to the Pyramids at the same time?…

Are you saying that China isn't a civ because economic centres move from time to time? I'm also fairly sure you're not quite characterizing either western or eastern fairly during the years 0 to ~1500.

What is Chinese Culture? If nothing else, the writing system? Putonghua was only adopted in all of current China under Mao.

I could also talk of the "western culture" and take Sanskrit and all indu-germanic languages that are descendant from it - so basically nearly all of the European languages" as "one culture".

Re: The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

#48

Post by roca »

_iyig wrote: post #5

To what extent did the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, and destruction of the "Four Olds" (Old Customs, Old Culture, Old Habits, and Old Ideas) damage this extensive cultural and historical tradition? Was the damage mostly material e.g. temples razed and books burnt, or did China's early Communist period have significant cultural/behavioral impacts as well? I've heard some commentators say that Taiwan preser…

When they fled to Taiwan the KMT crated as many treasures from the capital, in particular the Forbidden City, as they could, given the chaotic conditions, and took them to Taiwan. This probably saved a lot of them from being destroyed in the Cultural Revolution. Many of them are now on display at the National Palace Museum in Taipei, which is an amazing place to visit.

Re: The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

#49

Post by elfexec »

amriksohata wrote: post #17

Reading about the GDP of India and China, both two were the richest countries in the world before Mughal and British invasions. There was a reason they called India the jewel in the crown, it was the biggest transfer of wealth from the east to the west

As awful as the theft of wealth was, the bigger crime was the prevention of industrialization. India was directly stopped by britain from industrializing because britain didn't want a competitor and rather wanted to use india for resources to power its industrialization. China directly somewhat, but mostly indirectly was prevented from industrialization by western powers ( and eventually japan ) who destabilized china and seized its major ports, industries, resources, etc.

If india and china were able to free itself and industrialize when japan did, india and china would easily have the two largest economies in the world today. It's disheartening thinking about all the wealth, knowledge, goods, discoveries etc the world missed out because of shortsighted greed and brutality.

Re: The Oldest Living Civilization (1944)

#50

Post by bra4you »

elfexec wrote: post #44
bra4you wrote: post #14

"Until the Opium War of 1840–42 the European merchants and voyagers who reached the distant land of China had looked upon the Chinese with a good deal of awe as a people of superior culture." Bullshit and Chinese Propaganda with their "5000 years old culture". 5000 years ago we are talking about bones inscribed with precursors of the Chinese writing system. Not bad, but compare this to the Pyramids at the same time?…

> Bullshit It wasn't bullshit. Generally, the merchants and voyagers who reached china were in awe. It was why europeans wanted to get to china in the first place and not the other way around. Even decades after the opium wars, europeans were still in awe even while burning and pillaging. "... I have done well. The [local] people are very civil, but I think the grandees hate us, as they must after what we did the Pal…

> It wasn't bullshit. Generally, the merchants and voyagers who reached china were in awe.

Well, this was after Rome, and while after the middle ages, still before the industrial revolution.

> It was why europeans wanted to get to china in the first place and not the other way around.

The reason why Europe explored more during that time says more about China than Europe.

"Even decades after the opium wars, europeans were still in awe even while burning and pillaging."

Why should they? Even if they are writings about "superior culture" from that time, we had Roman writers write too about "superior Germanic culture" (bellum germanicum). By the way, do you know why the Opium war happened? Besides having the inferior technology on the Chinese side? Do you know what the reasons was? It should be a warning to China today.

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