How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost? • Hacker News Board

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#121

Post by prawn » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 1:10 AM UTC

markbnj wrote: post #46

WhompingWindows wrote: post #25

Are expensive roads really needed? What if we see a gradual decline in roadway expenditures in the USA, transitioning our economy to involve less driving and more work from home, deliveries via drone/efficient vehicle, promote self-sufficiency, not to mention biking, walking, trains, etc...my point is maybe we won't need/use roads as much as we do now. One would hope so, but it seems our VMT is going up over time whi…

There are roads in our county in New Jersey that have been transitioned from paved back to gravel, presumably based on usage and the anticipated savings from maintaining gravel over asphalt. I'm not a civil engineer and I don't know what all the tradeoffs are, but it seems to me that we're either going to have to admit we can't afford so much paving, or we're going to have to agree to pay higher taxes.

Or find a cheaper way to create/maintain roads?

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#122

Post by prawn » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 1:12 AM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #3

ryanar wrote: post #2

I feel like I am missing something here, a mile of road in a rural area costs $1,500,000 to reconstruct? How do small towns afford to maintain their roads?? Perhaps there are many costs that don't inflate as the number of miles increases, like the equipment needed to break down and repave the roads?

I would be very interested to see the breakdown of raw materials, equipment, labor, and various fees.

Same here. And from that, are there likely to be improvements in the future by automating processes and cutting labour, or finding cheaper materials, or saving on planning or re-routing traffic.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#123

Post by justinator » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 1:16 AM UTC

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #92

justinator wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider doing multi-day trips from your front door during the weekends (bikepacking). I used to live in Denver and never understood why people would find the need to drive 10 miles to the nearest trails when you could just ride to them. Then I realized, once you're done with those initial 10 miles, you could link up routes that covered practically the entire rest of the state. Now I'm writing a guidebook on those ro…

>10 miles to the nearest trails when you could just ride to them. Because they are usually up in the hills so its a fairly large effort to get there and by the time you are there you have no energy left to do the trails unless there is a ski lift to get you to the top.

I guess what happened to me is that I just got better at riding bikes, and before I knew it, I had cross the country by bike three times for fun! :)

As they say, "Any Distance Is Cycling Distance!"

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#124

Post by justinator » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 1:18 AM UTC

mumblemumble wrote: post #102

justinator wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider doing multi-day trips from your front door during the weekends (bikepacking). I used to live in Denver and never understood why people would find the need to drive 10 miles to the nearest trails when you could just ride to them. Then I realized, once you're done with those initial 10 miles, you could link up routes that covered practically the entire rest of the state. Now I'm writing a guidebook on those ro…

re: bike racks on buses, I don't know that it's worthwhile. Chicago has them, and they rarely get used. Personally I don't use them because my bike moves faster than the bus, so it hardly seems worthwhile. I've also seen a bike get stolen off of a bus I was on - the bus was stopped at a red light, and someone who was crossing the street just grabbed a bike off the front as he was walking past and rode away before any…

Pretty interesting.

Bike racks make a lot of sense here in CO - we have regional bus routes that can be 25 or 250 miles in distance. They, "why ride the bus when riding the bike is faster" isn't always true.

I do kind of live in cycling Mecca here in CO, where Chicago just ain't.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#125

Post by NoSorryCannot » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 1:24 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #117

shaftway wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feels pretty legit to me. I don't remember reading that, but when I drive a car and I've got more than 2 lanes to choose from, I usually end up in the middle. The right lane always has people merging, either to enter or exit, or trucks lumbering along at 45. The left lane always has someone wanting to do 90 in a 55. Middle is the smoothest, from a traffic flow perspective. On a motorcycle it's all about riding b…

"The right lane always has people merging, either to enter or exit, or trucks lumbering along at 45." Interesting perspective. I feel a little differently: - cars meeting to enter shouldn't affect you, because it's their responsibility to get to the right speed and time their entry to a gap; an entering car should never cause you to need to change speed or direction - an exiting car shouldn't affect you, because ther…

This seems a little bit idealistic.

People merging onto the highway are supposed to reach highway speed before attempting to merge, but they very often do not do that.

And they're supposed to to find a gap, but there may not be one or other drivers may deliberately try to deny them one.

The merging lane may be very short.

The merging car may start to change lanes even if it's not safe to do so.

Congestion may require more deliberately courteous behavior.

The right lane often has many trucks clustered together and rote exercise of the keep-right rule will require an excessive amount of lane changing.

And on a limited access highway, lane changing is the most dangerous routine maneuver so one should be thoughtful of balancing lane changing with expediency.

And the idea that a driver has no responsibility to accommodate another merging driver, if applied strictly, also means that one cannot always leave the right lane at will, because driver in the left lane are not permitting. So you change speed a lot, which is rough on fuel efficiency and precludes cruise control if it's adaptive.

Being religious about keep-right is kind of miserable on a congested highway, especially one with a differential of speed speed limits depending on vehicle type. The people most steadfast about traffic laws get punished at the pleasure of people who flout them, which doesn't seem correct.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#126

Post by beerandt » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 1:26 AM UTC

pedantsamaritan wrote: post #106

AcerbicZero wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look all you want, but road maintenance costs are primarily a subsidy for the trucking industry, and by extension the businesses that rely on them. Businesses that are primarily located in.....cities. If Middletown USA didn't have to worry about 80,000 lbs trucks hauling kombucha to your local bodega tearing up their roads, perhaps road costs would be a bit more in-line with reality. More importantly if we focused mo…

For the curious, "Road damage ... is estimated to be proportional to the fourth power of the axle weight". [0] A chart shows it nicely: https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weigh... [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_axle_weight_rating#Imp...

Also, it's an elasticity problem. There is essentially no damage and minimal wear until the forces exceed the elastic limit on the stress-strain curve.

A road is a spring, and will behave elastically, with almost no deformation, unless you exceed a certain point on the stress-strain curve.

This is why the main concern of highway departments is not exceeding maximum axel loads.

Worrying about the amount of wear commuters are responsible for is just a distraction.

It's like a toddler jumping on your mattress vs a 350 lb offensive-lineman doing it. They both technically cause some amount of wear, but it's not worth figuring out the proportions.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#127

Post by rahimnathwani » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC

NoSorryCannot wrote: post #125

rahimnathwani wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The right lane always has people merging, either to enter or exit, or trucks lumbering along at 45." Interesting perspective. I feel a little differently: - cars meeting to enter shouldn't affect you, because it's their responsibility to get to the right speed and time their entry to a gap; an entering car should never cause you to need to change speed or direction - an exiting car shouldn't affect you, because ther…

This seems a little bit idealistic. People merging onto the highway are supposed to reach highway speed before attempting to merge, but they very often do not do that. And they're supposed to to find a gap, but there may not be one or other drivers may deliberately try to deny them one. The merging lane may be very short. The merging car may start to change lanes even if it's not safe to do so. Congestion may require…

"The people most steadfast about traffic laws get punished at the pleasure of people who flout them, which doesn't seem correct."

Exactly. Each person acting in their own self-interest causes a reduction in road capacity and longer journey times. Those who try to stay in the right-most lane that's going their speed don't gain anything for themselves, as they only increase road capacity for people behind them.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#128

Post by cameldrv » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 1:44 AM UTC

alamortsubite wrote: post #112

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proper solution would be to tax trucks exactly the amount of damage they cause. This would cause the cost of imported goods to go up and the cost of local goods to go down. In the short term you would see the extra cost and lower taxes cancel each other out and in the long term, local goods become more common than imported.

This is the right idea, but let's not stop there. Why not also tax privately registered vehicles to some degree by their mass? I also like the idea of making fines for moving violations somewhat proportional to vehicle mass. The danger posed to others by a 150 lb moped pales in comparison to that of a 4500 lb pickup truck. At least in the U.S., a ticket for speeding 50% over the limit through a residential neighborho…

Because "privately registered" vehicles don't matter for purposes of road damage.

A fully loaded semi is 18,000 lbs per axle. A really huge personal vehicle, an F-350, is 4000 lbs per axle. That's 4.5x the weight, 4.5^4=410, so the semi is doing 410x as much damage. There's really no point in trying to tax personal vehicles for road damage when over 99% of the damage is being done by trucks.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#129

Post by NoSorryCannot » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 1:54 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #127

NoSorryCannot wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems a little bit idealistic. People merging onto the highway are supposed to reach highway speed before attempting to merge, but they very often do not do that. And they're supposed to to find a gap, but there may not be one or other drivers may deliberately try to deny them one. The merging lane may be very short. The merging car may start to change lanes even if it's not safe to do so. Congestion may require…

"The people most steadfast about traffic laws get punished at the pleasure of people who flout them, which doesn't seem correct." Exactly. Each person acting in their own self-interest causes a reduction in road capacity and longer journey times. Those who try to stay in the right-most lane that's going their speed don't gain anything for themselves, as they only increase road capacity for people behind them.

That's a bit of a cherry pick. I don't disagree with upholding the principle of the social good.

But two things.

Tragedy of the commons. You're arguing that some drivers should elect to have poor travel times to, frankly, accommodate those who are breaking the law. Maybe the law should be changed (different speed limits are bad) and more zealously enforced.

Second, your greatest responsibility on the road is safety and accident avoidance, not expediency. It is not defensible to change lanes or refuse to accommodate another driver when it may cause an accident that could have been avoided. Changing lanes or refusing to accommodate is least safe when there is a lot of congestion.

I don't know the best way to drive. I don't always obey the law and neither do I only do those things that give me individually an immediate. Mostly, I try to be safe and not instigate road rage.

But I don't think it's as simple as you're suggesting, either. You absolutely have to drive in a way that anticipates that others are acting selfishly. It's part of avoiding accidents.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#130

Post by beerandt » Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

dougweltman wrote: post #7

This does not address a larger question: how much does a mile of road cost to keep ? This is the installed base question. Consider the amount of road that has been built out in the US relative to the populations that road is serving. Maintenance and expansion is paid out mainly from state and local taxes. That's an enormous civilizational overhead the US contends with, not to mention the economic cost of a large port…

>This does not address a larger question: how much does a mile of road cost to keep?

Half of that design chart is for reconstruction and repaving. What else are you looking for?

>an enormous civilizational overhead

You could eliminate suburbia overnight, and demand for those suburban and rural highways will still be there, since cities generally need things delivered from outside (like food) in order to continue being cities.