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Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

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Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#191

Post by int_19h »

jacobush wrote: post #153
brownbat wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's somewhat fashionable to say it was all really just a Russian/German war. You rightly point out the contributions of Canada and the UK relative to population. But I have one defense of the naive "but but the US mattered!" view... Khrushchev and Stalin readily admitted that they would have been quickly overrun by the Germans without the US basically flooding the Eastern front with fuel, trucks, munitions an…

Everything else aside, the German industry must have been incredibly strong to withstand the rest of the world against it for so long. Such a double tragedy it was wasted on a horrible war effort in instead of furthering humanity.

It wasn't that strong, though. That's precisely why there's a popular opinion that Germany was done by 1943, pretty much regardless of anything else - they've spent their own industry while failing to sufficiently cripple the Soviet one. The question then wasn't about who'd win the war, but how long it would take, how many more casualties, and what the map of Europe would be after.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#192

Post by int_19h »

monadic2 wrote: post #102
blattimwind wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common perception is that Soviet electroncis were generally 10-15 years behind.

Common perception about soviet anything is generally wrong, at least in the us.

Not in this case, from personal experience living in the last years of the USSR. I remember just how "magic" the microwave ovens were to us, and how much better non-Soviet-made tape players and recorders were.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#193

Post by [deleted] »

rdiddly wrote: post #132

"... a 26 December 2019 ruling by the Constitutional Court of Turkey that the more than two and a half year block imposed by the Turkish government was unconstitutional." Your takeaways: 1) Turkey has a Constitutional Court. 2) Turkey has a constitution. 3) The court makes rulings and they are carried out. 4) Erdogan did something and it was "checked" and "balanced." Sounds an awful lot like a nation of laws, ruled b…

[deleted]

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#194

Post by int_19h »

tomerbd wrote: post #17

The people of Turkey have voted for him right? He improved their economic situation enormously, this is democracy, you get who you vote for.

The majority shouldn't get to arbitrarily trample the rights of the minority.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#195

Post by gmanley »

TheNorthman wrote: post #164
adventured wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Soviet Union was responsible for ~80% of german casualties. None of which would have been possible without the extraordinary industrial might of the US that kept the USSR supplied. They had no capacity to fight minus being supplied. Do you know how much territory the European allies had reclaimed in the years of fighting prior to the US invasion of Europe? None. There is no scenario where Nazi Germany gets defe…

> and the USSR leadership openly admitted exactly that privately. This sentence is nonsense. They publicly (not privately) thanked the US for their aid. Besides, your framing of the war is obviously false. The allies had lost the war up until about ~1943, where they started gaining momentum. A turning point I'd like to point out is the Battle of Kursk, in which the Germans for the first time cancelled a major operati…

> Their capacity for production was higher because they weren't sending everyone to their death.

Well of course that's why. I don't thing anyone is arguing otherwise. OP was simply saying, without the US, the allies would likely have lost.

Why the US was able to supply most of the Ally's supplies doesn't take away from the fact that they did. Your not even arguing against anything OP was saying here, other than the "openly private" contradiction, which was right on. Now of course it wasn't just the US that won the war, without the USSR the Allies would almost assuredly have lost.

Now certain people may argue that one was more responsible for winning the war than the other. I think that's pretty pointless and we can leave it at them both being critical to winning the war.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#196

Post by Thorrez »

cnst wrote: post #188
Thorrez wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have a goal of blocking iPads or poor people, they have a goal of blocking old TLS versions. But yes, I would like to see their reasoning for this decision. How many people were using [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/phame/post/view/111/wikipe...

Can you explain why blocking old TLS versions is even necessary? Didn't all the browser vendors announced that they're disabling old TLS versions in their browsers in a few months now? Blocking poor people is the only thing that is accomplished by this policy employed by Wikipedia. It's very sad that everyone's celebrating all these actions, instead of calling Wikipedia out for widening the digital gap, and quite lit…

I never said it's necessary.

But there are certain risks from supporting the old versions. Take a look at this table[1]. In the TLS 1.0 and TLS 1.1 columns not a single cipher is listed as secure. Some can be secure with mitigations, but I'm not familiar with the difficulty of those mitigations, and whether the mitigations would have to be serverside or clientside. If clientside, then by blocking old versions, they might actually be closing vulnerabilities.

Supporting more stuff means more surface area for new attacks. Also the older stuff was designed with less knowledge of current attack strategies, so there might be a higher likelihood of vulnerabilities being found there.

Just because new browsers disable old TLS versions doesn't mean everyone is safe. As you've already pointed out, some people use old browsers, so to protect those people there might need to be serverside changes.

> Blocking poor people is the only thing that is accomplished by this policy employed by Wikipedia.

That seems like an exaggeration. One thing they accomplished was PCI-DSS compliance. I don't value that, but some people probably do.

> It's very sad that everyone's celebrating all these actions

I'm not celebrating their actions.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security#Ciphe...

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#197

Post by onetimemanytime »

tokai wrote: post #136
rdiddly wrote: post #132

"... a 26 December 2019 ruling by the Constitutional Court of Turkey that the more than two and a half year block imposed by the Turkish government was unconstitutional." Your takeaways: 1) Turkey has a Constitutional Court. 2) Turkey has a constitution. 3) The court makes rulings and they are carried out. 4) Erdogan did something and it was "checked" and "balanced." Sounds an awful lot like a nation of laws, ruled b…

Makes sense why Ergodan is attacking the court system. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/18/un-urged-to-ac...

He's destroying the other side completely, whether they are lawyers or government janitors. But in theory courts and military can stop him. He purged the military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%93present_purges_in... so it's just the court now.

Absolute power is dangerous and the mind starts to slip after a while.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#198

Post by Twixes »

vunie wrote: post #189
sdinsn wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> guys it was lifted After 2.5 years... Let's not pretend like this is some major success. It's a failure by all accounts that luckily ended up OK.

Compared to illegal mass surveillance programs that remain running to this day, and a witty intelligence head who remains free after lying under oath, this is a shinning success that should be celebrated. Hopefully other nations follow their lead one day.

Turkish authorities don't have global tech giants to tap into, but worry not, they're monitoring the internet very closely. In fact, they arrest people over tweets criticizing their rule. [0] And of course they block Wikipedia country–wide, over what Donald Trump would call "fake news" (as he does with news outlets revealing embarrassing facts about him or his administration). Not an example to be followed by any government on Earth.

[0] https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/03/27/turkey-crackdown-social-...

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#199

Post by Twixes »

elfexec wrote: post #150
jacquesm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real effect is that Turkey will get more and more behind the rest of the world because its citizens do not have access to information. Regimes that block access to the truth are structurally disadvantaging themselves and their citizens in the long run.

> The real effect is that Turkey will get more and more behind the rest of the world because its citizens do not have access to information Considering the censorship that goes on in Britain, Germany, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc, I'm not so sure about your claim. > Regimes that block access to the truth Lets not kid ourselves and pretend wikipedia is the "truth". Jimmy Wales has come out as being partisan and agend…

Sure, no single person is completely objective, but Wikipedia is not a news outlet with Jimmy Wales as editor-in-chief. It's an encyclopedia crowd-sourced from an immense number of volunteers, all with different knowledge. So popular articles can generally be trusted to be informative, as they were overseen by many people with overlapping knowledge. Surely this is a more objective source of information than most state–run or commercial media where the voices are far fewer and often kept on a short leash of agenda by management (TRT's agenda, for example, being presenting the current Turkish government as the best possible one).

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#200

Post by Twixes »

diminish wrote: post #80
jacquesm wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can leave out the 'potentially'. There is no way that any coup would justify putting this many people in jail.

Somehow most western supported military coups and regimes persist, in South America, Africa, middle East and East Asia. And most of these coups have wide spread support in a wider political panorama. So military coups or uprisings seem to destabilize and stabilize third world. Yet ongoing demonstrations in France and England are usually ignored and violently suppressed without support from elites. I'm curious why

Not exactly true as other commenters pointed out, but besides that, what does this have to do with the "coup" three years ago?
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