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Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

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Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common perception is that Soviet electroncis were generally 10-15 years behind.

Common perception is that the US contributed the most to ending WW2 (Not the opinion at the time) Common perception is also that the US won the space race (Not the opinion at the time outside the US). Perhaps "common perception" isn't the right metric to go by.

Some things aren't a matter of opinion. Look at Buran, for instance [1]. (This is why it's so frustrating as an American to acknowledge that we can't even put humans in space anymore.)

Another good example is Ken Shirriff's recent blog entry, which includes some notes comparing the degree of IC technology in US versus Soviet space hardware of similar vintage: http://www.righto.com/2020/01/inside-digital-clock-from-soyu...

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/space/comments/38kfhn/new_photos_of...

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common perception is that Soviet electroncis were generally 10-15 years behind.

Common perception about soviet anything is generally wrong, at least in the us.

And yet, we're still here, and they're gone.

I guess that's our fault, huh. It always is.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#113
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't work like that. The Soviet Union which had some of the most tightly controlled access to information, and didn't have to worry about the Internet, managed to stay at the cutting edge of science and technology, even sometimes outpacing the west. The communist economy couldn't support it but that's a different problem.

That's because they stole it. When you stand on the shoulders of giants it's not difficult to take the next step. In cases where the Soviets outpaced the west, most notably in the space race, they did so for lack of prudence. The US could only tolerate at most one accident (Apollo 1) else the entire endeavor would have been jeopardized. Rigorous testing, empirical investigation, and redundancy all imposed costs on th…

They stole some of it but that is what jacquesm is advocating: copying ideas. And in the space race they were also first with the unmanned Sputnik with no such safety concerns.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real effect is that Turkey will get more and more behind the rest of the world because its citizens do not have access to information. Regimes that block access to the truth are structurally disadvantaging themselves and their citizens in the long run.

I’m not sure I buy this. Sure you can have access to the “truth” in the west, but you also see a staggering amount of propaganda/mass manipulation/willful distraction and no easy way of differentiating the two. That said, wikipedia specifically would be a massive loss to anyone.

You’re right that learning to read critically is a challenge, but the idea that just not having access to the written word is somehow better...

I guess I’ll put it in your terms: I have a hard time buying that.

If your suggestion is that it’d be better to go back to a centrally controlled publishing industry... I also don’t buy that.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real effect is that Turkey will get more and more behind the rest of the world because its citizens do not have access to information. Regimes that block access to the truth are structurally disadvantaging themselves and their citizens in the long run.

I’m not sure I buy this. Sure you can have access to the “truth” in the west, but you also see a staggering amount of propaganda/mass manipulation/willful distraction and no easy way of differentiating the two. That said, wikipedia specifically would be a massive loss to anyone.

>Sure you can have access to the “truth” in the west, but you also see a staggering amount of propaganda/mass manipulation/willful distraction and no easy way of differentiating the two.

The thing is, when you have access to both truth and misinformation, you still stand a non-zero chance of filtering out trash and getting to the truth. In that scenario, misinformation has to step up its game and compete with real information. It cannot be too wild and out there to capture the minds of the majority. Whoever spreads the misinformation has to carefully balance the strength of their misinformation vs. appearing legitimate.

On the other hand, when the truthful info is all blocked completely, the quality of misinformation and propaganda doesn't matter. If it is the only source of info, then that's what the population will consume. It can be as wild as possible, and it won't matter at all, people will eat it up. No need to balance the strength vs. legitimate appearance, you can put all your chips on strength.

One can argue about how much truth people are able to consume when it is mixed with tons of misinformation, but if truthful sources are blocked, the answer to "how much" becomes "almost none". And the situation is made even worse by how much more wild and more dishonest the misinformation can become if there is a vacuum of sources of truth due to them being completely blocked.

As an example, in countries that tend to block major sources of truth and where we tend to think that a lot of people are just mindless sheep eating up government propaganda, I personally don't think people there are just naturally too dumb to not figure out they are being lied to or they are predisposed naturally to be more susceptible to propaganda.

When you have a vacuum of info, it has to be filled by something. If all that's on the plate is wild misinformation, then that's all you will eat, it isn't like you have any other choice, aside from completely isolating yourself from society.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#116
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't work like that. The Soviet Union which had some of the most tightly controlled access to information, and didn't have to worry about the Internet, managed to stay at the cutting edge of science and technology, even sometimes outpacing the west. The communist economy couldn't support it but that's a different problem.

Well, witness North Korea in the present day, and many other dictatorships besides, they usually lose their ability to innovate about as fast as they bury their dissidents.

Chinese came up with many inventions (gun powder, printing press, ocean faring ships) we consider civilization-defining and didn't do much with them. Meanwhile Europeans took them to new heights and conquered the world.

A level of individualism is probably the most important factor and fairly incompatible with totalitarian regimes but wide access to information isn't nearly as crucial as infovores assume.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#117
post #39

I wonder what will happen (politically) in countries that engage in mass Internet censorship when SpaceX's Starlink constellation goes GA. I've always believed (perhaps naively) that the Internet is a great equalizer for information. Free (as in freedom) and unfettered Internet access seems like one of the few things that could make it incredible difficult for bad and oppressive regimes to operate anywhere in the wor…

Most satellite systems allow countries to block access. The first tier is refusing to sell to locals/local billing addresses (which is ALSO imposed by sanctions, e.g. due to USA, satcom vendors with any US connection don't sell to Iran/NK); the second tier is allowing countries to ban operation within their borders. There are tricks (what actually matters to the satellite is your exact delay, so there's a range of sp…

> what actually matters to the satellite is your exact delay, so there's a range of spots which look the "same"

That's potentially true for GEO systems. It's not at all true for LEO/MEO systems, where ⓐ that "range of spots" is rapidly moving over the surface of Earth as the satellite does, ⓑ you have AOS/LOS when the satellite crosses the horizon, and ⓒ you can get enormously improved bandwidth for a given power budget by using highly directional antennas on the satellite as well as the groundstation. Starlink is LEO.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real effect is that Turkey will get more and more behind the rest of the world because its citizens do not have access to information. Regimes that block access to the truth are structurally disadvantaging themselves and their citizens in the long run.

I’m not sure I buy this. Sure you can have access to the “truth” in the west, but you also see a staggering amount of propaganda/mass manipulation/willful distraction and no easy way of differentiating the two. That said, wikipedia specifically would be a massive loss to anyone.

The world is also just learning how to deal with the damage. It reminds me of the time when the Flintstones were brought to you by some cigarette company.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common perception is that Soviet electroncis were generally 10-15 years behind.

Common perception about soviet anything is generally wrong, at least in the us.

It's not like you could just walk up to some preserved soviet microelectronics and compare their technical sophostication (e.g. metal layers, feature sizes, power density) to contemporary Western technology.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#120
post #25

I wonder what will happen (politically) in countries that engage in mass Internet censorship when SpaceX's Starlink constellation goes GA. I've always believed (perhaps naively) that the Internet is a great equalizer for information. Free (as in freedom) and unfettered Internet access seems like one of the few things that could make it incredible difficult for bad and oppressive regimes to operate anywhere in the wor…

As a billionaire philanthropist you will still have to align to your home country’s foreign policy, because your billions only have value so far as the State enforces your property rights. So very concretely, if China says "hey US of A, please don’t bring uncensored Internet to my citizens: it would be a shame if all this manufacturing and trade suddenly stopped", and the US gov agrees, then Elon Musk will not provid…

China has the technology to shoot down satellites. If SpaceX tries to circumvent China's laws they'll just take out their constellation, so SpaceX has no leverage there.

Smaller, third-world countries, maybe there are more chances there. Citizens would likely need to import and manufacture their own antennas illegally that connect to the constellation.

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