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New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#281

Post by jkqwzsoo »

moulei wrote: post #277
jkqwzsoo wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It came from a wet market for exotic meats. If it wasn’t a bat it was some other animal that was illegally trafficked and shouldn’t have been sold for consumption. And this has what to do about making specific claims without evidence? With passing off sources as supporting your claims when they make no such claim?

https://time.com/5770904/wuhan-coronavirus-wild-animals/ Several media outlets have confirmed that the "seafood market" actually sells a wide variety of wildlife meat And a reference pic in Chinese here On this board, it says "Wildfowl Market". They put a price on some meats, including Masked palm civet, which suspected to be the intermediate host of the disease. https://www.6parknews.com/newspark/view.php?app=news&a…

> Several media outlets have confirmed that the "seafood market" actually sells a wide variety of wildlife meat

I'm sorry, but as I've said numerous times, the specific claim that I was disputing was that the commenter above claimed that they had an article stating that bat consumption was the "most probable". In fact, the article you linked specifically says what I'm saying. Namely, don't speculate!

> The West Blames the Wuhan Coronavirus on China’s Love of Eating Wild Animals. The Truth Is More Complex

Wonder what this could mean?

> The 2002-2003 SARS pandemic was eventually traced to civet cats sold in a similar style of wet market in southern Guandong province, and some foreign tabloids are circulating unsubstantiated claims that the Wuhan coronavirus originated from everything from bat soup to eating rats and live wolf pups.

This certainly doesn't sound like Time magazine is speculating that bat consumption is the "most probable" cause to me.

> However, Adam Kamradt-Scott, associate professor specializing in global health security at the University of Sydney, says this way of thinking is often flawed. While scientists first thought that Ebola started with the consumption of bat meat in a village of south-eastern Guinea, they now believe that the two-year-old girl known as Child Zero was likely infected via bat droppings that contaminated an object she put in her mouth. MERS was also primarily spread from live camels to humans through association, rather than the eating of camel meat.

This, rather, seems to support my claim that we shouldn't speculate on things that we don't have any information or expertise about.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#282

Post by nopinsight »

philliphaydon wrote: post #278
nopinsight wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quarantine of 12 cities and 35 million residents. Suspension of tour groups out of the whole country. What more can you do? https://qz.com/1790891/china-expands-quarantine-to-12-cities... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/25/world/asia/china-coronavi...

They quarantined Wuhan, and announced it 8 hours before they did it, they estimated 200k people left Wuhan in a rush. Yet people are still entering and exiting Wuhan for CNY. So as far as I'm concerned this quarantine is just political face.

That is still 98% quarantine rate and should significantly reduce the chance the infection will establish in other cities.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#283

Post by daodedickinson »

cjbprime wrote: post #279
sdiw wrote: post #21

From what I've read it came from bats. Most probably bats being eaten.[1] Bats have been the source of at least 4 pandemics. It's interesting to note that current coronavirus spreading in China and the SARS outbreak of 2003 have two things in common: Both are from the coronavirus family, and both were passed from animals to humans in a wet market.[2] I tried to put together a page for coronavirus in China here where…

I think you might be confused about "bats being eaten". A theory on SARS is that it was spread by bats eating fruit, leaving guano on it, civets eat the guano-laced fruit, people eat the civets. Just because bats are an important part of the vector doesn't mean that people are eating them directly. I haven't seen anyone claim, for example, that live bats were actually sold at the Wuhan wet markets. But civets are, il…

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7927747/Asian-man-d...

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#284

Post by sloppycee »

Aperocky wrote: post #84
DevX101 wrote: post #30

I'm bordering on conspiracy theory territory here, but I'd also like an real investigation into whether the virus actually originated from the Wuhan Biosafety Laboratory. It's the only level 4 (BSL-4 highest rating) lab in all of China designated to handle the most dangerous pathogens. And it's located 20 miles from the reported epicenter in the wildlife market. It was first opened two years ago and at the time multi…

> I'm bordering on conspiracy theory territory here Yes. All of the initial cases are people who have been to a specific seafood market, which also sells wild animals. You would be suggesting that somehow Biosafety Laboratory dropped it's virus specifically in that market, which sold animals known to naturally carry the coronavirus. I call bs based on principal: Simple explanation is almost always right over complex…

> Simple explanation is almost always right over complex ones.

What's more likely?

An amazing coincidence:

  - The origin of this novel disease is 20 miles from a research lab.
  - The research lab is actively studying zoonotic viruses.
  - The genome suggests a ~10 years lineage from the closest bat coronavirus (96% identical). This strain of Bat coronavirus has gone under the radar for that long?
  - Despite the numerous mutations it has the exact same envelope protein to that closest bat coronavirus. This is extremely unusual even for closely related viruses.
  - China is 'overreacting': has quarantined 50 million people, stationed armed guards in hazmat suits and is scrambling to build overflow hospitals.
OR

Someone responsible for disposing of test animals (bats) decided instead to make a quick buck selling them to a market 20 miles down the street?

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#285

Post by [deleted] »

ptenk wrote: post #28
sdiw wrote: post #21

From what I've read it came from bats. Most probably bats being eaten.[1] Bats have been the source of at least 4 pandemics. It's interesting to note that current coronavirus spreading in China and the SARS outbreak of 2003 have two things in common: Both are from the coronavirus family, and both were passed from animals to humans in a wet market.[2] I tried to put together a page for coronavirus in China here where…

I’ve read virology reports that the virus originated most likely from bats but through an intermediary source — as to which animal, that’s unknown. Another thing I’ve been pondering is since bats have been the source of deadly, infectious diseases in humans for so long, that’s where the historical myth of vampires and the living dead come from.

[deleted]

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#286

Post by Geee »

chrisco255 wrote: post #49
sdiw wrote: post #21

From what I've read it came from bats. Most probably bats being eaten.[1] Bats have been the source of at least 4 pandemics. It's interesting to note that current coronavirus spreading in China and the SARS outbreak of 2003 have two things in common: Both are from the coronavirus family, and both were passed from animals to humans in a wet market.[2] I tried to put together a page for coronavirus in China here where…

I've heard the bat eating theory, but the virus is airborne and infects the lungs. So it seems that eating a bat probably didn't cause this.

It is a specific mutation of the virus, that is able to infect lungs and spread by making you sneeze. The mechanism that makes you sick is also the way to spread for the virus. People get viruses all the time from eating bats, but if it doesn't make you sneeze (or spread fluids in another way) it won't be infectious.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#287

Post by adrianmonk »

CydeWeys wrote: post #55
EndXA wrote: post #23

Key quote from the article: > “If we were to shut the wildlife markets, a lot of these outbreaks would be a thing of the past,” says Ian Lipkin, director of Columbia University’s Center for Infection and Immunity, whose lab worked with Chinese officials to develop early diagnostic tests for SARS. > That’s because both SARS and the new outbreak are zoonotic, meaning these diseases started in animals before spreading t…

Maybe (hopefully?) China will shut down these markets after this outbreak. They've been known to take serious measures in the past when necessary. Surely the benefit of these markets cannot outweigh their costs (including on the local wildlife, not just infectious diseases).

Recent and relevant interview from All Things Considered (NPR):

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/798644707/why-wet-markets-per...

One interesting point was they had tried to discourage these markets in the past and replace them with supermarkets, but people didn't want to switch. These markets offered food cheaper, people like them, they might offer opportunities to socialize, and they offer wild animals which are traditionally viewed as healthy and a sign of wealth.

Of course, the Chinese government can do a more authoritarian crackdown on it than what they tried in the past. Also, maybe this outbreak could change public opinion.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#288

Post by dang »

_byed wrote: post #271
tempsy wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is your point? That because a food source is considered by some people to be a delicacy means it’s racist to suggest that eating it is unwise given the public health risk? Foie Gras is banned in CA because it’s produced inhumanly and consider cruel. Is that action a form of racism against French culture?

Why do you keep suggesting racism here? Bigotry is the word, but if the food source isn't endangered (some bats are, some aren't) (edit: or produced cruelly, to your point), and if the education exists to safely prepare the food (e.g. cook it thoroughly to avoid pathogens), there's no real reason to dissuade routine consumption other than cultural biases or "ew that's gross," which frankly is the same thing. On the o…

Can you please stop now? It's just repeating itself, and we don't need more flamewar about bat eating.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#289

Post by chx »

wsc981 wrote: post #280
qwerty456127 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the very fact people eat bats alarming? Who would eat bats voluntarily? They probably don't have much choice there.

In Asia people eat a lot of really weird stuff for us Westerners. I live in Thailand with my Thai girlfriend. I don't understand why my girlfriend likes to eat various kinds of insects and larva and why people in my village like to eat a pigs' brains. Yesterday my girlfriend showed me a YouTube movie of a Chinese girl eating a live octopus. I also know some people like to eat snakes around here. Different strokes for…

There's a ragout made from lungs (Beuschel) that is enjoyed in the former Austro-Hungarian empire area and absolutely nowhere else. If you want to try it, the best can be had at the Meierei, just don't forget to reserve a seat a few weeks ahead especially if your lunch aligns with the strudel time, the place is packed to the gills then.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#290

Post by ggcdn »

osteele wrote: post #239
JCharante wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Wearing masks is normal because of air pollution. A lot of people wear really loose non-N95/n99 masks though, but there's definitely an uptick in people wearing better masks because of the virus. - An acquantince of mine went to a supermarket today. Everything seems fine (they live not too far from Beijing where there are confirmed cases). - There are still people entering Wuhan to see family. ( https://youtu.be/cm…

In Shanghai (at least, Pudong and Puxi), mask usage has jumped dramatically since last week. I haven't actually kept score, but my impressions of usage from walking around a lot are: - Summer/spring (lower pollution — Chinese AQI around 60–100, with spikes to 150): 5-10% of people wear masks outdoors. The indoor rate is lower (2-3%?). - December/early January (AQI typically above 120): 20-30% outdoors. The indoor rat…

This is consistent with my observations in the Jiading area - low pollution days but mask usage around 80% for general populace and 95% for service workers (store clerks, etc).

We’ve decided to leave China before things get any worse. I’m not looking forward to bringing my family through the airport this week though...

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