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Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

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Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#81

Post by mcantor »

rdouble wrote: post #68
gnaritas wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, sloppy writing and sloppy grammar generally mean sloppy thinking. If you're going to take the time to write something, you must want it to be read; have respect for your reader and use proper capitalization, punctuation, and correct contractions. There are a lot o…

fred wilson never capitalizes or uses periods on hacker news

The rest of us are not Fred Wilson.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#82

Post by gnaritas »

geoffw8 wrote: post #54
gnaritas wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, sloppy writing and sloppy grammar generally mean sloppy thinking. If you're going to take the time to write something, you must want it to be read; have respect for your reader and use proper capitalization, punctuation, and correct contractions. There are a lot o…

Not that I do, but what if I said I had learning difficulties? Or never went to school. Your saying I'm not allowed to contribute?

Nowhere did I say or imply that, I simply said there are quite a few people who won't read sloppy writing; that's a simple statement of fact. If you want to be read by the widest audience, then consider the reader rather than what's easiest for you.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#83

Post by gnaritas »

rdouble wrote: post #68
gnaritas wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, sloppy writing and sloppy grammar generally mean sloppy thinking. If you're going to take the time to write something, you must want it to be read; have respect for your reader and use proper capitalization, punctuation, and correct contractions. There are a lot o…

fred wilson never capitalizes or uses periods on hacker news

Then he's being lazy, but if you look at his blog, he most certainly does.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#84

Post by mcantor »

geoffw8 wrote: post #57
InclinedPlane wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's "you're guilty", not "your guilty". >_> Seriously though, calm down. Both your post and the post you're referring to have plenty of upvotes, which is a strong indication that they are not unwelcome contributions to HN. Personally I think it's important to maintain civility, writing quality, and professionalism in an online discussion, and I'm glad that HN values that. It's a lubricant that enables more productiv…

I agree with all of your points, except one - when I'm doing something of leisure, i.e. commenting on hacker news, I actually don't think about my grammar or spelling and nor will I begin to. As far as I'm concerned, people pulling people up on their spelling and grammar is a step to far. Edit: Spelling and grammer excellence isn't in the guidelines http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I don't think anybody at Hacker News really begrudges your leisurely writing practices. However, it seems like you feel entitled to have your opinions treated equally despite the fact that you are presenting them differently. This is probably why many of your comments are getting downvoted. I am sure that you and posters such as frevd are cool, intelligent dudes; but most members of the HN community value conventional writing style. It's not in the guidelines because it is something that comes from the members of the community themselves. By intentionally eschewing the rules of writing, you are signalling to the community that you are not willing to "meet them in the middle", so to speak.

If the majority of HN posters did not care about writing style, this situation would be reversed. But, c'est la vie.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#85

Post by jarek »

mkr-hn wrote: post #74
jarek wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root comment compiled perfectly. The grammar was understandable and the logic reasonably sound. The only deviations from the gold standard of natural English are: 1) "lol"; 2) ";]"; 3) lack of capitalization on some words. That is much closer to whitespace conventions than tossing brackets and semicolons all over the place.

I think #3 is the sticking point. I can read it, but a lifetime of reading has trained me to use capitalization past a period and space as a prompt to some sort of change. The lack of it makes a paragraph read like an unbroken sentence to me. It slows me down considerably. I'm not defending or agreeing with the complaint, just trying to find the reasoning behind one of the positions. I think people should step back a…

I agree that the capitalization is a bit of a problem for the root, but at the same time I think SamReidHughes's reply was a vast overreaction. Looking back through the OP's comments per SamReidHughes's reference I agree they're not necessarily up to the HN prose standard but still nothing to go ballistic about.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#86

Post by Mz »

jarek wrote: post #77
Mz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is not a strict coders forum. Even simply being female makes me very much a minority here and I have seen a number of posts from women who cite that as an obstacle to effective participation. I like getting a diversity of views and feedback/information. It is one of the reasons I work hard on coming across politely and respectfully when speaking with people who have strongly different views from mine: It…

"As for speaking English as a second language: Stating up front "please forgive my English" seems to work pretty well to smooth things over for some members here." This isn't my discussion and so I apologize for potentially butting in, but being an ESL speaker myself it bothers me a bit to see ESL writers apologize for their English. I'm not sure if this is unique to those who are ESL themselves, but I find distingui…

Some people here are quite anal about grammar and spelling and do not seem to readily infer that someone is an ESL speaker. I come from a bicultural/bilingual home. English is my native language but I also am prone to imposing German-isms (for lack of a better word) onto my writing, especially when tired. I do this in spite of not growing up knowing much German. I'm generally pretty tolerant of individual quirks and of the acclimation process new people go through. Lots of people are not. I basically agree with you that they shouldn't need to apologize/explain but in some instances it does seem to help smooth things over.

Peace.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#87

Post by kraggp »

JesseAldridge wrote: post #72
geoffw8 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'd have better success if you showed some respect for your readers by capitalizing and writing your posts in a normal style. Starting off with "lol" and an emoticon marks you as somebody who hasn't thought about what he is about to write, and who doesn't care to present his thoughts to the reader in an organized manner. That is the biggest pile of bs I have ever read. Just because he starts his posts with a lol,…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) Attention is a scarce resource. Acting like a fool is correlated with actually being a fool. People are less likely to take a comment seriously when a cursory examination suggests that it's a waste of space. Maybe that's not the way it should be, but that's the way it is.

Are you serious? Have you worked in a board room at a Fortune 500 company? Most CEOs and executives don't have time to compose grammatically-error-free responses. Do you know how Steve Jobs writes? Now multiply that across 500 organizations of the biggest corporations in America and the shoddy writing will certainly shock you if you think "people are less likely to take a comment seriously" because their sentences aren't grammatically-correct. Calling someone a fool because they write differently from you is absurd. Ad hominem attacks don't belong on HN.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#88

Post by mcantor »

kraggp wrote: post #79
SamReidHughes wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because he starts his posts with a lol, and a smiley mean NOTHING. Actually it means a lot. When you read, your neurons get tingled. How this happens is affected by writing style. Not everybody has the time or energy to be a hyperrationalist information absorber that processes data into the same thing irrespective of the order and manner it arrives. edit: I think you've misinterpreted my post if you think I sa…

The pseudo-intellectualism that permeates this board is a little appalling. I can certainly assure you that C-level executives across Silicon Valley backed by the strongest VCs and beyond write in a much less formal manner than most people on HN. Nothing wrong with that.

Context is very important, though. I don't think anyone is claiming that there is a correlation between intelligence and writing ability; only that within the context of HN comments from the majority of posters, style is important.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#89

Post by gnaritas »

markkat wrote: post #73
gnaritas wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, sloppy writing and sloppy grammar generally mean sloppy thinking. If you're going to take the time to write something, you must want it to be read; have respect for your reader and use proper capitalization, punctuation, and correct contractions. There are a lot o…

I have to disagree. Some very intelligent people struggle with writing. I can understand skipping a comment over poor grammar. But if you are going to vote, I think you ought to consider the content over the form.

You don't have to be a good writer to know that sentences begin with capital letters and end with periods; children know that. Anyone who doesn't do that isn't having difficulty writing, they're simply being lazy and only thinking of what's easy for them rather than what's easy for the reader. Not being a good writer is simply no excuse.

Re: Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me?

#90

Post by Mz »

gnaritas wrote: post #45
geoffw8 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'd have better success if you showed some respect for your readers by capitalizing and writing your posts in a normal style. Starting off with "lol" and an emoticon marks you as somebody who hasn't thought about what he is about to write, and who doesn't care to present his thoughts to the reader in an organized manner. That is the biggest pile of bs I have ever read. Just because he starts his posts with a lol,…

> What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, sloppy writing and sloppy grammar generally mean sloppy thinking. If you're going to take the time to write something, you must want it to be read; have respect for your reader and use proper capitalization, punctuation, and correct contractions. There are a lot o…

I do understand why this stuff matters and trips people up (and I sometimes ask for clarification when I can't understand what someone meant because of a typo), but this kind of mistake is quite common with native speakers who write what they "hear" in their head. In one of my college French classes, a native speaker of French was taking the class so he could get a teaching credential (IIRC). He routinely made this type of mistake, which I never made in French. Ironically, it was actually a reflection of his higher fluency.

As for the general topic of this sub-thread:

I really don't have any problem with the tendency on this forum to correct/critique someone's grammar or spelling. I just think how it is done matters. I can't wrap my brain around claiming that good grammar and spelling matter tons while delivering it with contempt, disrespect, hostility and general bad manners like those are just fine (which I have seen done quite a few times on HN). I would rather talk to someone who makes spelling and grammar errors but has manners than someone whose writing is impeccable but you can just feel them sneering down their nose at you. I didn't think the opening post from SamReidHughes really did that, though it wasn't all warm-fuzziness either. So I opted to assume it was "constructive feedback" given with good intentions even though it wasn't the warmest, most convivial delivery. But then I generally think manners require one to give the benefit of the doubt and only nail someone to the wall when you are sure they are not only being an arse but intentionally so. It takes two to make good communication happen. It isn't just about what one person does.

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