New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market • Hacker News Board

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#51

Post by CydeWeys » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #40

DevX101 wrote: post #30

I'm bordering on conspiracy theory territory here, but I'd also like an real investigation into whether the virus actually originated from the Wuhan Biosafety Laboratory. It's the only level 4 (BSL-4 highest rating) lab in all of China designated to handle the most dangerous pathogens. And it's located 20 miles from the reported epicenter in the wildlife market. It was first opened two years ago and at the time multi…

The odds of this naturally occurring in China are probably close to 1 in 4. And the odds of it happening in Wuhan are probably close to 3%. The odds of the Chinese government making a super virus based on Coronavirus seem smaller than that, and the odds of it escaping the laboratory might be decent, but when you combine them, it's pretty slim. If this were some super strain of Smallpox, that would make a more convinc…

I really hope nobody is working on the (insanely irrational) idea of creating a super virus. There's no way in hell you could use that as a weapon of war because there's no way you could ensure it doesn't leave the target country. And even the act of trying to make one is insanely dangerous; if it accidentally gets out, which is easily possible, now you're killing all your own people.

I want to say that all government see the logic of this and haven't so much as attempted it. I don't think China would be this foolish.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#52

Post by verroq » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #45

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The odds of this naturally occurring in China are probably close to 1 in 4. And the odds of it happening in Wuhan are probably close to 3%. The odds of the Chinese government making a super virus based on Coronavirus seem smaller than that, and the odds of it escaping the laboratory might be decent, but when you combine them, it's pretty slim. If this were some super strain of Smallpox, that would make a more convinc…

> The odds of the Chinese government making a super virus based on Coronavirus seem smaller than that, and the odds of it escaping the laboratory might be decent, but when you combine them, it's pretty slim. I don't think anyone is arguing that this is an outbreak of an unusually dangerous virus. It's just an unexpected outbreak of a new flu-levels-of-dangerous virus, and it happened suspiciously close to a BSL-4 fac…

It’s funny because bats (and bat caves) are reservoirs of many viruses contained in BSL-4 facilities and they have no containment and frequently come into human contact.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#53

Post by hisomehelppls » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 6:19 PM UTC

nexuist wrote: post #44

hisomehelppls wrote: post #26

Can someone explain https://blast.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Blast.cgi?RID=2PUA1EJK114&CMD... to me? This is a comparison between 'bat SARS-like coronavirus' and 'Wuhan seafood market pneumonia virus'. Under Alignments, it looks like the envelope proteins are identical. Wouldn't that be unlikely for a natural mutation? Would this not lead credence to this being a leak from their BSL-4 lab about twenty miles away from the Wuhan…

I have no credibility to answer this question, and I don't even know what any of the words on that page mean, but is it possible that it was always the same virus and just documented under two different names? After all, pneumonia is a symptom of coronavirus, so wouldn't it make sense that people thought it was just the "Wuhan seafood market pneumonia virus" until later reports and information indicated it would actu…

Nope, not a chance! The news of it being properly isolated, sequenced and placed in a tree directly under bat SARS-like coronavirus that shows they are considered separate:

https://ncbiinsights.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2020/01/13/novel-coron...

Another MAJOR key difference here: One is not transmissible to humans and the other is.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#54

Post by chrisco255 » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 6:20 PM UTC

EndXA wrote: post #23

Key quote from the article: > “If we were to shut the wildlife markets, a lot of these outbreaks would be a thing of the past,” says Ian Lipkin, director of Columbia University’s Center for Infection and Immunity, whose lab worked with Chinese officials to develop early diagnostic tests for SARS. > That’s because both SARS and the new outbreak are zoonotic, meaning these diseases started in animals before spreading t…

Nat Geo is making a lot of assumptions here based on official Chinese info. There is also a world class virology research center in Wuhan that opened in the last few years that was studying viruses just like this. I don't think it's a coincidence it broke out in Wuhan, as there are wildlife markets in other cities in China too.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#55

Post by CydeWeys » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 6:21 PM UTC

EndXA wrote: post #23

Key quote from the article: > “If we were to shut the wildlife markets, a lot of these outbreaks would be a thing of the past,” says Ian Lipkin, director of Columbia University’s Center for Infection and Immunity, whose lab worked with Chinese officials to develop early diagnostic tests for SARS. > That’s because both SARS and the new outbreak are zoonotic, meaning these diseases started in animals before spreading t…

Maybe (hopefully?) China will shut down these markets after this outbreak. They've been known to take serious measures in the past when necessary. Surely the benefit of these markets cannot outweigh their costs (including on the local wildlife, not just infectious diseases).

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#56

Post by CydeWeys » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

nexuist wrote: post #44

hisomehelppls wrote: post #26

Can someone explain https://blast.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Blast.cgi?RID=2PUA1EJK114&CMD... to me? This is a comparison between 'bat SARS-like coronavirus' and 'Wuhan seafood market pneumonia virus'. Under Alignments, it looks like the envelope proteins are identical. Wouldn't that be unlikely for a natural mutation? Would this not lead credence to this being a leak from their BSL-4 lab about twenty miles away from the Wuhan…

I have no credibility to answer this question, and I don't even know what any of the words on that page mean, but is it possible that it was always the same virus and just documented under two different names? After all, pneumonia is a symptom of coronavirus, so wouldn't it make sense that people thought it was just the "Wuhan seafood market pneumonia virus" until later reports and information indicated it would actu…

There's no way that professional virologists are mistaking/conflating a pneumonia and a coronavirus.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#57

Post by TeMPOraL » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

verroq wrote: post #52

TeMPOraL wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The odds of the Chinese government making a super virus based on Coronavirus seem smaller than that, and the odds of it escaping the laboratory might be decent, but when you combine them, it's pretty slim. I don't think anyone is arguing that this is an outbreak of an unusually dangerous virus. It's just an unexpected outbreak of a new flu-levels-of-dangerous virus, and it happened suspiciously close to a BSL-4 fac…

It’s funny because bats (and bat caves) are reservoirs of many viruses contained in BSL-4 facilities and they have no containment and frequently come into human contact.

I didn't even realize that until now.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#58

Post by 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

nexuist wrote: post #32

DevX101 wrote: post #30

I'm bordering on conspiracy theory territory here, but I'd also like an real investigation into whether the virus actually originated from the Wuhan Biosafety Laboratory. It's the only level 4 (BSL-4 highest rating) lab in all of China designated to handle the most dangerous pathogens. And it's located 20 miles from the reported epicenter in the wildlife market. It was first opened two years ago and at the time multi…

> >The former Israeli military intelligence doctor also said suspicions were raised about the Wuhan Institute of Virology when a group of Chinese virologists working in Canada improperly sent samples to China of what he said were some of the deadliest viruses on earth, including the Ebola virus. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jan/24/virus-hit-w...

Why is Canada sending Ebola to China?

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#59

Post by CydeWeys » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

legulere wrote: post #15

zbjornson wrote: post #2

I'm amazed that there's not a movement to stop eating and being around animals as much world-wide, given that so much disease (and environmental damage) comes from consumption of and proximity to animals: - MERS-CoV: bats via dromedary camels - nCoV-2019: bats or snakes? - Influenza: pigs, birds - E. coli O157:H7: cows and other farm animals. ... (Edit: I mean along the lines of how safer sex is encouraged to prevent…

Basically all human diseases started out as zoonosis as humans for a long time we’re too few to be a viable reservoir.

The worst part is how the diseases from other animals are way too deadly to humans. The human-specific diseases like the common cold are a great example of a disease that is ideally adapted to its host. Its high adaptable (thus getting around our immune system), it spreads effectively, and crucially, it's very rarely fatal. Because it's not deadly, it can easily infect the same host over a hundred times throughout its lifetime.

Viruses that are routinely deadly to the organisms catching them are not adapted well to their hosts. We see this with HIV (came from monkeys), the worse flus (came from birds), and all sorts of other stuff.

Re: New coronavirus can spread between humans, but started in a wildlife market

#60

Post by 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #49

sdiw wrote: post #21

From what I've read it came from bats. Most probably bats being eaten.[1] Bats have been the source of at least 4 pandemics. It's interesting to note that current coronavirus spreading in China and the SARS outbreak of 2003 have two things in common: Both are from the coronavirus family, and both were passed from animals to humans in a wet market.[2] I tried to put together a page for coronavirus in China here where…

I've heard the bat eating theory, but the virus is airborne and infects the lungs. So it seems that eating a bat probably didn't cause this.

The act of eating the bat is plausible from people catching them (alive), storied then, preparing them, and people coming to an area where that happens to consume them.