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Who wants to play the status game?

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Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#151

Post by whoisnnamdi »

asdfman123 wrote: post #99
kristianc wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Setting expectations low, and then making them feel foolish for misjudging you. It's a risky game. People tend to make their first impressions within seconds, and then spend the rest of the time looking for evidence to validate that assumption.

Not really. As a shy person, I've been playing it my whole life. For some reason, people meet me and assume... I dunno, that I'm just someone who can be swept aside. I let them believe that. But I'm a lot more capable than people give me credit for being, and I'll be honest, a part of me enjoys it when that realization starts to set in. It's not really a machiavellian ploy on my part to optimize some kind of social o…

As someone who is also sometimes underestimated, I sympathize with your situation.

Good on you though for being self-aware and perceptive enough to realize it is they who have the incorrect view and having the patience to let that view correct itself over time. Turning it to your advantage and taking joy in watching that correction take place is doubly good.

Most people in your position just assume, “people don’t think highly of me on first impression, and they must be right”

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#152

Post by RookyNumbas »

abnry wrote: post #105
RookyNumbas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. There isn't one game, there are infinitely many, and different people will have success at different games. But there is also the meta-game: The game of being able to win the highest variety and largest amount of different games. I think this meta-game is closest to what we think of as status.

It's kinda funny how we selectively care. Usually we only care about the things we feel we could be good at. Someone like Lebron James has a lot more status than I ever will. But I just don't care because I have never been good at basketball (or sports) and I don't really care about the skill. But someone who is a 10x programmer or has published a lot of great results in mathematics? That pit of envy in my stomach wi…

Which games we selectively care about are a result of our values. So our ranking of the importance of games mimics our value hierarchy. Christianity provides a value structure with a clear "Top", and the instructions to organize our ranking of games in accordance.

And while not religious, I also believe that they've got this right.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#153

Post by pdonis »

kstenerud wrote: post #48

> but we also need an aspirational target at the top, so as to inspire us to excellence, creativity and accomplishment. Why do we need this? Is the author suggesting that without an externally provided target, none shall be inspired? The status game is inherent to all socially cooperative creatures. It's not a morality thing; it's an evolutionary thing. It's nothing we can legislate or moralize or shame away; all you…

> if you want to enlist the work of others by means other than coercion or bribes, the status game (i.e. charisma, popularity, respect) is the only way to do it

No, it isn't. You can simply trade something valuable to them that you have, for something valuable to you that they have.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#154

Post by CraigJPerry »

cousin_it wrote: post #145
CraigJPerry wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reconcile corporate software sales with that world view? Trade is entirely predicated upon status and status is only partially predicated upon trade.

> Trade is entirely predicated upon status I think that's way overstated. As an outsourcer in Moscow working for Western companies, I got plenty of gains from trade, despite having lower status than Western folks. And remember how China took over world trade while being so low status that "made in China" was a joke?

Moscow has a relatively high status. Russia is nearer the top than it is to the bottom of the 196.

To pick an aribtrary example WITHOUT casting aspertions because that’s not my goal - a Somalian company producing the best product X would struggle severely against a trashy X made in, again arbitrary choice, China.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#155

Post by [deleted] »

lukifer wrote: post #146
cousin_it wrote: post #114

Status sucks. The greatest invention of civilization is trade, which makes status obsolete. In a society that upholds property rights of everyone, even the lowest can get ahead without being seen as superior or excellent. Just offer something that other people want to have, and ask for a little money in return. The result of that process - that a low-status-looking, fat, filthy, cowardly trader ends up driving a BMW…

While I'm sympathetic to your view (status feels very "high school", and in some ways profoundly boring), I'd like to make a case for The Good Parts of status (as well it's bottom-up cousin, "prestige" [0]). I can't remember where I read it (probably also Simler?), but I love the aphorism that "honor can sometimes buy gold, but gold can never buy honor". In addition to the fungible, zero-sum-ish resource economy, the…

[deleted]

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#156

Post by CalRobert »

abnry wrote: post #105
RookyNumbas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. There isn't one game, there are infinitely many, and different people will have success at different games. But there is also the meta-game: The game of being able to win the highest variety and largest amount of different games. I think this meta-game is closest to what we think of as status.

It's kinda funny how we selectively care. Usually we only care about the things we feel we could be good at. Someone like Lebron James has a lot more status than I ever will. But I just don't care because I have never been good at basketball (or sports) and I don't really care about the skill. But someone who is a 10x programmer or has published a lot of great results in mathematics? That pit of envy in my stomach wi…

"From dust you came to dust you will return." - a valuable thing to keep in mind. Much the idea behend the memento mori I believe. It's easy for it to let it get you down but if you consider your mortality on a regular basis (daily or more often) it really changes how you see things. It certainly makes it easier to decide what matters.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#157

Post by leftyted »

pdonis wrote: post #150
leftyted wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The greatest invention of civilization is trade, which makes status obsolete. In a society that upholds property rights of everyone, even low-status "omegas" can get ahead without ever being seen as superior or excellent. Just offer something that other people want to have, and ask for a little money in return. "Trade" doesn't let you escape status. "Omegas" who get ahead by being smart are competing for status and…

> Humans have built all this stuff because we have been able to invent arbitrary status games. No, humans have built all this stuff because it provides value to more and more people. Time spent on status games is time not spent doing something productive.

"Productivity" grants status, which is why people care about it.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#158

Post by kvb »

yboris wrote: post #67
cpcallen wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I gravitated to those who were chill, and perplexed anyone who tried to play the Status Game by losing on purpose. I think this is also a sort of power play, but also an amusing one that I too enjoy - e.g., it's quite fun, when questioned about what I do by someone who obviously cares about social status, to not mention my well-paid job working at a FANG company but instead talk about working as a dance teacher.

Reminds me of how in high school, there are kids that are smart and want to show it off (raise their hands, answer teacher's questions), and there are those that are on the "next level" -- they don't even need to prove to everyone else that they know the answers, so they never raise their hands. In personal conversations some are eager to share that they are doing something amazing, but those on the "next level" don'…

Yes, there has been some study of this phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#159

Post by leftyted »

cousin_it wrote: post #136
leftyted wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The greatest invention of civilization is trade, which makes status obsolete. In a society that upholds property rights of everyone, even low-status "omegas" can get ahead without ever being seen as superior or excellent. Just offer something that other people want to have, and ask for a little money in return. "Trade" doesn't let you escape status. "Omegas" who get ahead by being smart are competing for status and…

Trade is the opposite of a zero-sum status game: it creates gains and shares them among participants. (Gains from trade exist whenever Alice and Bob have different rates of exchange between good X and good Y.) Success in trade doesn't come from being better than others and making them less successful, it comes from trading with others and making them more successful.

I think you're making a good point but I don't think it has to do with status (as understood by the author of this article). Status games aren't necessarily zero-sum. "Facilitators" can accrue status without being directly involved in anything. Harvey Weinstein never directed a movie; Steve Jobs never built a computer.

I don't think you can escape status games while interacting with other people. Things that people compete for grant status. That includes money, fame, and even notoriety. If you invent some game (i.e. trading) and you earn lots of money doing it, then people will mimic you, and suddenly you're playing a status game even if that was never your intention.

Even opting out of status games is a status game (as the article points out). If you decide "I'm going to live in the woods alone," some reporter is going to follow you and write a story about you. That actually happens a lot! Maybe if you successfully remove yourself from all other people until you die so that there's no trace of you anywhere, you've opted out. But that's hard to do and we never hear about the people who do it (for obvious reasons).

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#160

Post by toasterlovin »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #143
toasterlovin wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it's critical to realize: mocking others for engaging in the Importance Game and the Leveling Game is just a way of engaging in the Importance Game. I grew up in Los Angeles and now live in Portland, OR. People in LA play the status game rather brazenly and are roundly mocked for it. But the exact same game is played by everyone doing the mocking here in Portland. Except, instead of buying luxury automobiles an…

I question whether the described Portland approach is actually subtler. Is it actually? It's definitely more meta. It's definitely less resource-intensive. But in my experience there's nothing subtle about sour grapes.

> I question whether the described Portland approach is actually subtler. Is it actually?

I think it is, FWIW. Nothing about the game is actually spoken aloud; everything is inferred and gathered via subtle clues. In my experience, one major factor that separates the social classes is the ability to notice these subtleties and modify your behavior accordingly.

> It's definitely less resource-intensive.

I'm not sure that I agree. It requires less money. But it requires way more time. And it probably also requires a level of intelligence and mental sophistication that can't really be faked. If you have money, it's easy to just buy expensive stuff. But it's hard to fake an Instagram feed filled with vegan meals, yoga, hiking, political rallies, etc.

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