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Who wants to play the status game?

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Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#101

Post by CalRobert »

elil17 wrote: post #98
asdfman123 wrote: post #78

I get the sense that the conflict the author describes is a problem in American culture, because most of us want to believe in a classless society, yet at the same time, class is everywhere. I feel in many cultures it's far more explicit and tolerated. You know who your "betters" are. In America, you'd never acknowledge that. I'm not saying that a rigid social hierarchy would be better -- but our approach to society…

In China, for instance, your annual income is a common get-to-know-you type question, right along with where you’re from

That's remarkable - I don't even tell my parents my salary.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#102

Post by brnt »

rapnie wrote: post #83
asdfman123 wrote: post #78

I get the sense that the conflict the author describes is a problem in American culture, because most of us want to believe in a classless society, yet at the same time, class is everywhere. I feel in many cultures it's far more explicit and tolerated. You know who your "betters" are. In America, you'd never acknowledge that. I'm not saying that a rigid social hierarchy would be better -- but our approach to society…

In Dutch society there is a saying "Act normal, then you are crazy enough". Showing ones wealth and status is not done and seen as flashy and arrogant, something to be ashamed of really. Edit: Good examples of where this leads to is the Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte visiting the King by bike [0] or cleaning up his own spilled coffee by himself [1] while the cleaners are watching. [0] https://www.cyclingweekly.com/n…

It is not done in certain circles, and of course all circles engage in wealth (or its proxy, virtue) signalling, because we are apes who can't help themselves. Dutch society pretends to be above all that, and thereby developed a neat little blind spot on its radar. That situation isn't helped by its particularly irritant way of ignoring any contrarianism until the evidence is so overwhelming we all pretend we have always seen it in this new way.

Class signalling is thus more subtle, e.g. you better not sound too provincial, you can observe the way one dresses, and what clubs or sports are frequented. The usual, but more toned down compared to driving a ridiculous BMW or somesuch.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#103

Post by CalRobert »

rapnie wrote: post #83
asdfman123 wrote: post #78

I get the sense that the conflict the author describes is a problem in American culture, because most of us want to believe in a classless society, yet at the same time, class is everywhere. I feel in many cultures it's far more explicit and tolerated. You know who your "betters" are. In America, you'd never acknowledge that. I'm not saying that a rigid social hierarchy would be better -- but our approach to society…

In Dutch society there is a saying "Act normal, then you are crazy enough". Showing ones wealth and status is not done and seen as flashy and arrogant, something to be ashamed of really. Edit: Good examples of where this leads to is the Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte visiting the King by bike [0] or cleaning up his own spilled coffee by himself [1] while the cleaners are watching. [0] https://www.cyclingweekly.com/n…

Riding a bike is a way to show off the best cycling infrastructure in the world, as well as your modern, wealthy, functional society where this is not a security concern. It's a pretty big flex. I burn with envy, and look at American transport infrastructure with disgust.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#104

Post by elil17 »

afpx wrote: post #19

Another "more advanced game" is the collaboration game. In this game, the players determine their common ground. The players evaluate each other and think, "Hey this person seems to be good at X and knows a lot about Y. I know a lot about Z. Maybe we can join forces." They then identify common goals that they can work on together. I don't know about most people, but I'm definitely more interested in playing the colla…

I think I engage in a similar thing, but I think the “collaboration game” doesn’t quite describe it. When I meet someone new, I want to hear about a topic they know a lot about that I’m unfamiliar with (recently topics have included the Spanish monarchy, the difference between hot dogs and sausages, and Costa Rica) - we don’t collaborate on anything, so I think I might call it the “Interesting Difference Game.”

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#105

Post by abnry »

RookyNumbas wrote: post #79
CalRobert wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we get to choose which ones, if any, matter to us." Definitely! It can be amusing (and awkward) when the game is played by people who have wildly different things they value. Someone (politely, of course) reveals they're a wealthy executive and you react by looking on them with pity because they have to sell their time to others to work on dumb things that don't matter while you get to be footloose and backpack arou…

Right. There isn't one game, there are infinitely many, and different people will have success at different games. But there is also the meta-game: The game of being able to win the highest variety and largest amount of different games. I think this meta-game is closest to what we think of as status.

It's kinda funny how we selectively care. Usually we only care about the things we feel we could be good at. Someone like Lebron James has a lot more status than I ever will. But I just don't care because I have never been good at basketball (or sports) and I don't really care about the skill.

But someone who is a 10x programmer or has published a lot of great results in mathematics? That pit of envy in my stomach will appear.

It gets worse when you compare yourself to someone who is better in both the things you care about AND the things you don't care about. This is because we placate ourselves with the fact that others are better at what we care about by saying, "at least I am better at them in this area, even if I don't care about it too much."

The way Christianity deals with this problem is one of the most appealing things about it for me. "From dust you came to dust you will return." Instead of focusing on your selfish ambition and self-glory, focus on the beauty of what is at play, ultimately seeing it as rays of light coming from God's glory.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#106

Post by CalRobert »

afpx wrote: post #19

Another "more advanced game" is the collaboration game. In this game, the players determine their common ground. The players evaluate each other and think, "Hey this person seems to be good at X and knows a lot about Y. I know a lot about Z. Maybe we can join forces." They then identify common goals that they can work on together. I don't know about most people, but I'm definitely more interested in playing the colla…

The collaboration game is easier to play when you've already had a crushing victory in the importance game, though. It's a lot easier to give information away when you're not worried about competition.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#107

Post by ahuth »

willemlabu wrote: post #92
fatninja wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thats interesting. Consider a scenario of a guy with proper attire vs this guy. If the guy with proper attire did the same level of presentation as this guy, who have the probability to "win the clients"

He explained it as a rudimentary scale from 1 to 10. Expectations for him starts at a 3, and might rise to 8. Someone well dressed, might start at a 6 and rise to 8. The difference is, well, what makes the difference.

Maybe. Another explanation could be that defying the social norms of the situation starts you at a higher level of status.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#108

Post by asdfman123 »

rapnie wrote: post #83
asdfman123 wrote: post #78

I get the sense that the conflict the author describes is a problem in American culture, because most of us want to believe in a classless society, yet at the same time, class is everywhere. I feel in many cultures it's far more explicit and tolerated. You know who your "betters" are. In America, you'd never acknowledge that. I'm not saying that a rigid social hierarchy would be better -- but our approach to society…

In Dutch society there is a saying "Act normal, then you are crazy enough". Showing ones wealth and status is not done and seen as flashy and arrogant, something to be ashamed of really. Edit: Good examples of where this leads to is the Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte visiting the King by bike [0] or cleaning up his own spilled coffee by himself [1] while the cleaners are watching. [0] https://www.cyclingweekly.com/n…

I feel a lot of Americans feel the same way, too. I feel uncomfortable having people wait on me or clean up after me.

My fiancée likes borrowing very expensive shoes from her sister and frankly, I find it very embarrassing. I kind of want to just... reject all of that, and live simply. She mostly agrees, but she does like nice things from time to time.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#109

Post by whatshisface »

Aardwolf wrote: post #56
mark_l_watson wrote: post #55

Status signaling is complicated and I have been thinking lately how inconsistently I signal. On one hand, I feel very happy with my career and hobbies like writing books and I signal this to people when I first meet them. I try to not be obnoxious, but human nature is human nature. On the other hand, I live in a small town and last spring when I shipped my car across the country as a gift to my granddaughter, I decid…

Not signaling is also a form of signaling.

I think this grammatically puts the agency on the wrong people. It's not that you have to always be signaling, it's that other people are always judging you and interpreting everything you do. You can transmit no information, but everyone will catch a case of apophenia and see shapes in the TV static nonetheless.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#110

Post by toasterlovin »

kerkeslager wrote: post #75

> It is much easier to mock others for engaging in the Importance Game and the Leveling Game than to acknowledge one is doing it. And it's critical to realize: mocking others for engaging in the Importance Game and the Leveling Game is just a way of engaging in the Importance Game. This is an even stranger game than Nuclear War: it sometimes seems that the only winning move is not to play, but not to play isn't reall…

> And it's critical to realize: mocking others for engaging in the Importance Game and the Leveling Game is just a way of engaging in the Importance Game.

I grew up in Los Angeles and now live in Portland, OR. People in LA play the status game rather brazenly and are roundly mocked for it. But the exact same game is played by everyone doing the mocking here in Portland. Except, instead of buying luxury automobiles and extremely expensive clothes, as people in LA do, people here signal status using markers of enlightenment and moral purity such as diet, meditation, political positions, etc.

I’m conflicted. In some ways, I appreciate the honesty of the LA approach. But I also appreciate the more subtle nature of the Portland approach.

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