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Who wants to play the status game?

thepointmag.com

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Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#81

I get the sense that the conflict the author describes is a problem in American culture, because most of us want to believe in a classless society, yet at the same time, class is everywhere. I feel in many cultures it's far more explicit and tolerated. You know who your "betters" are. In America, you'd never acknowledge that. I'm not saying that a rigid social hierarchy would be better -- but our approach to society…

Another way it’s hidden is in the way we project our status. It’s not tasteful here to have something that’s just “expensive” anymore. They’ll create more expensive versions of everything (such as iPhones). Ostensibly to give better features, but the “higher end” things tend to simply be a way to show wealth.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. Is it related to rankings, star systems, etc? > pervasive assumption I think whenever "rating" anything people are aware that it's a subjective and probably useless number meant for convenience than accuracy.

A 3d vector of 2m by 8m by .1m can be projected on to a plane in a wide range of scalars. When someone says that someone else is smart because they got a 100 on a test they are taking a multidimensional attribute and projecting it onto a single dimension.

I still think people understand that intelligence is multifaceted. Nobody past 3rd grade thinks that intelligence is entirely and directly measured by an exam.

However, acing a tough exam does show that you have high ability in some skills which can be included in "intelligence". It is perfectly reasonable to say someone is smart after they do something to prove their cognitive ability, even if they haven't proven every single possible kind of cognitive ability.

I think the miscommunication here is what people mean when they say "he is smart" or "this hotel is better than that one". I don't think people are commiting a scalar fallacy when they say these things. People are making judgements based on the many different aspects of a thing, and then using simplified speech to express their opinion.

If you are booking a vacation, you have to choose a hotel. When comparing hotels you look at all the different aspects (the bed, room size, the restaurant/bar, etc). You have to weigh all these options and then pick which hotel you would prefer to stay at. So when you make a choice and say 'hotel A is better than hotel B', you are not asserting that hotel goodness is measured in one dimension and that hotel A is objectively better. It's rather a benign statement that you would prefer to stay at hotel A.

It's not a fallacious reduction to a scalar quantity, but at some point you do have to make choices and weigh preferences.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#83

I get the sense that the conflict the author describes is a problem in American culture, because most of us want to believe in a classless society, yet at the same time, class is everywhere. I feel in many cultures it's far more explicit and tolerated. You know who your "betters" are. In America, you'd never acknowledge that. I'm not saying that a rigid social hierarchy would be better -- but our approach to society…

In Dutch society there is a saying "Act normal, then you are crazy enough". Showing ones wealth and status is not done and seen as flashy and arrogant, something to be ashamed of really.

Edit: Good examples of where this leads to is the Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte visiting the King by bike [0] or cleaning up his own spilled coffee by himself [1] while the cleaners are watching.

[0] https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/dutch-pm-form...

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/06/06...

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#84
post #19

Another "more advanced game" is the collaboration game. In this game, the players determine their common ground. The players evaluate each other and think, "Hey this person seems to be good at X and knows a lot about Y. I know a lot about Z. Maybe we can join forces." They then identify common goals that they can work on together. I don't know about most people, but I'm definitely more interested in playing the colla…

Great points! Tangent: I wish more games were explicitly collaborative. Some competitive games can easily be adjusted, others not so much. Games like "Forbidden Island" represent, for many, a completely foreign paradigm where everyone's in it together. Shame that's not more common.

+1, I used to play random DotA pub games and got a huge kick out of the occasions when a team of strangers would click and work together. I sort of replicated that with pick-up basketball but topped out at below average. If anybody has team game recommendations like Forbidden Island I'd like to hear them.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#85

I once attended a talk by a man who was head of a creative marketing agency. He also had a side gig of being a presentation consultant. I forget his name and agency, but I don't think I could forget what he said. He would lead his company's pitches to new clients, and would turn up to the presentation wearing a t-shirt, shorts, and flip flops; tattoos all over his arms and neck, and thereby set the expectations of th…

thats interesting. Consider a scenario of a guy with proper attire vs this guy. If the guy with proper attire did the same level of presentation as this guy, who have the probability to "win the clients"

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#86

Alternatively, opt out of the status game and try to construct and pursue your own definition of excellence, rather than simply defining it in terms of your position in the social hierarchy. " Main deficiency of active people. Active men are usually lacking in higher activity-I mean individual activity. They are active as officials, businessmen, scholars, that is, as generic beings, but not as quite particular, singl…

> Today as always, men fall into two groups: slaves and free men. Whoever does not have two-thirds of his day for himself, is a slave, whatever he may be: a statesman, a businessman, an official, or a scholar.

This, of course, can go either way depending on perspective. If you put all of yourself into your main activity, you're doing it for yourself, not for someone else. Whether you're being paid by someone else isn't relevant, IMO; what if you'd do it for free, or if you could do something else more profitably (so you're paying, in opportunity cost, to do it)?

Money is far from the only, or even main motivator for most people - even for poor people, they'll often stay geographically close to their friends and family rather than migrate to a better life; it's mostly the desperate at one end, or the cosmopolitans at the other (for whom the world is small, so the geographic switch is less material), who do move.

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

-- Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#88
post #19

Another "more advanced game" is the collaboration game. In this game, the players determine their common ground. The players evaluate each other and think, "Hey this person seems to be good at X and knows a lot about Y. I know a lot about Z. Maybe we can join forces." They then identify common goals that they can work on together. I don't know about most people, but I'm definitely more interested in playing the colla…

I'm with you on the collaboration game.

WRT. hierarchy, I don't know what exactly Aristotle meant (I need to get off my butt and read about his work one day), but taking the expression "see human political organization as fundamentally hierarchical" - well, it kind of is. Bottom-up hierarchy is still a hierarchy.

The way I see it, people create a level of governance once their group crosses the Dunbar's number. Below it, it's easy for a group to self-police, enforcing coordination and resolving prisonner's-dilemma-like problems (tragedy of the commons, etc.). Above it, when people don't generally know everyone else in their group, you need some power delegated to a single authority to enforce coordination. And now if you take a lot of such groups, they'll have problem coordinating at an inter-group level, so another level of governance is needed - and now you have a two-level hierarchy. Repeat recursively as groups grow.

(There's also a point somewhere above Dunbar's number, where governance of a growing group becomes untenable, so that group gets effectively or explicitly split into many smaller ones. This feeds the creation of the second layer of governance, and thus the third, etc.)

WRT. the following who you respect and not who you're told to, I think a lot of problems with governance start in the second generation. When a governance is formed, the group may have chosen it out of respect, but the people born into that group after that had no say in the matter, and are just told to obey by everyone else.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#89
post #83

I get the sense that the conflict the author describes is a problem in American culture, because most of us want to believe in a classless society, yet at the same time, class is everywhere. I feel in many cultures it's far more explicit and tolerated. You know who your "betters" are. In America, you'd never acknowledge that. I'm not saying that a rigid social hierarchy would be better -- but our approach to society…

In Dutch society there is a saying "Act normal, then you are crazy enough". Showing ones wealth and status is not done and seen as flashy and arrogant, something to be ashamed of really. Edit: Good examples of where this leads to is the Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte visiting the King by bike [0] or cleaning up his own spilled coffee by himself [1] while the cleaners are watching. [0] https://www.cyclingweekly.com/n…

Or your king flying planes for KLM.

Re: Who wants to play the status game?

#90
post #35

This has given me food for thought. My kids go to school in an area that has a mix of incomes. My average day might involve working from home, or it might involving traveling internationally to visit $PROMINENT_BRAND_NAME to deliver consulting. When I talk to the other parents I want to reveal some aspects of my life so we have something to talk about. However I can easily come across as boasting (and, to some extent…

Ask them about their kids and just let them do the talking. A natural conversation usually flows from there.

Ya, just ask about their kids' business empires, newly-founded non-profits, and recent publications in high-impact journals!
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