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23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

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Re: 23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

#361

Post by rubber_duck »

hyperbovine wrote: post #333
killjoywashere wrote: post #177

The real risk in my mind is that this opens market space for Beijing-backed companies like Novogene in Sacramento. They will occupy that space and every adjacent space as fast as they can. They'll sequence your tumor genetics, or your germline to get a better read on you're kid's inherited disease. And you'll never know it because your doctor contracted with them, they signed a BAA (so it's all legal, right). And the…

This wild, unfounded fantasy completely misses the point: genetic privacy is fundamentally unlike other types of private information. It is trivially easy for someone to collect your genetic information if they really want to, completely legally and without your consent. They could, for example, obtain bits of the multitude of genetic material you spread around your environment simply by existing -- chewing gum, hair…

The ways in which this data can be abused (eg. prescreening for insurance, loans, etc.) doesn't line up with someone going out and hunting identifiable DNA samples to build a database. It does line up with self submitted/self funded database - you are basically paying to get in a DB that can be used to discriminate against you - it almost seems comical

Re: 23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

#362

Post by HenryBemis »

glennpratt wrote: post #299
cookiecaper wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this isn't science fiction or conspiracy theory anymore. Several high-profile cold cases have gone hot as police have been trawling the datasets submitted to 23AndMe et al and investigating the family trees of persons whose DNA is similar-ish to the samples in unsolved cases. [0] The results are mainly bupkis anyway, and you're paying for the privilege of having police agencies across the country (world?) give…

It's all tradeoffs, I want some privacy, but I also like crimes being solved. In fact, I'd see that as a benefit even if I'm related to criminals. Of course this assumes it is used correctly and fairly, which is the hard part.

This is similar to the typical "encryption is for pedophiles" argument. Privacy doesn't mean that I am a criminal and/or my brother/sister/father/mother/children/cousins are murderers.

I also like ALL crimes to be solved and the guilty ones to get what they should, and the innocent ones to be living a life outside jail.

But we got something called "fundamental rights" (at least imho). One of them is privacy. NOT having an insurance company ripping me off because my father had X-Y-Z disease is another right I would like to have. They are already making billions as is. The ones that don't, should get their s..t straight and stop bleeding money for stupid reasons (yes I know from experience). No need to give them the bullet that will injure me (financially).

I think that all these DNA tests was a fad. Kinda like facebook was. People realize that they get very little value from it, and it most likely come back and kick them in the shin one way or another.

Re: 23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

#363

Post by kalleboo »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #351
ewoodrich wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? They point out the difficulty balancing personal privacy and tools to identify criminals who have evaded justice. Just because you don't agree with the relative importance placed on either side doesn't make them dumb or naive.

What makes you naive is if you put any smidegeon of hope into the fact that insurance companies will not hesitate to buy and abuse such data to fuck you over left, right and central then you really are beyond help. If you want to risk that, fine. But you're also screwing all your relatives in the same swell process. And that's not only naive and dumb, that's totally reckless.

The solution to that is to abolish or neuter your insurance companies like the us in the rest of the world did. The fact that a private for-profit company decides if you live or die is absurd.

Re: 23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

#364

Post by throwaway2048 »

hyperbovine wrote: post #333
killjoywashere wrote: post #177

The real risk in my mind is that this opens market space for Beijing-backed companies like Novogene in Sacramento. They will occupy that space and every adjacent space as fast as they can. They'll sequence your tumor genetics, or your germline to get a better read on you're kid's inherited disease. And you'll never know it because your doctor contracted with them, they signed a BAA (so it's all legal, right). And the…

This wild, unfounded fantasy completely misses the point: genetic privacy is fundamentally unlike other types of private information. It is trivially easy for someone to collect your genetic information if they really want to, completely legally and without your consent. They could, for example, obtain bits of the multitude of genetic material you spread around your environment simply by existing -- chewing gum, hair…

having access to a vast, identified DB of DNA is a lot different than hiring someone to follow millions and millions of people to capture their DNA.

Re: 23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

#365

Post by neuronic »

epistasis wrote: post #150
markdown wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank goodness for that. They definitely won't break that law. Nope. Corporations don't do that.

When it's in their financial interest, they will avoid doing things that cost them money. Lawsuits are one such cost. Which is why companies train interviewers not to ask any information that laws prevent them from using during the hiring process. If you don't know, clearly you didn't use that info for discriminatory hiring practices. Similarly, there was a very recent article about how GINA might be acting as a priv…

That is true as long as the cost of lawsuits is higher than the potential gain from breaking the law.

Companies knowingly break the law all the time, reek in profit and send out an army of lawyers to pay some minuscule fine that doesn't impact their bottom line.

Fines that don't threaten to break a companies business are just ignored and basically written off as operating costs.

Re: 23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

#366

Post by TeMPOraL »

kalleboo wrote: post #363
CaptainZapp wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you naive is if you put any smidegeon of hope into the fact that insurance companies will not hesitate to buy and abuse such data to fuck you over left, right and central then you really are beyond help. If you want to risk that, fine. But you're also screwing all your relatives in the same swell process. And that's not only naive and dumb, that's totally reckless.

The solution to that is to abolish or neuter your insurance companies like the us in the rest of the world did. The fact that a private for-profit company decides if you live or die is absurd.

Last I checked, medical and life insurance is a thing everywhere else in the world as well. While a public healthcare system will pay for your treatment, it will not pay for the loss of earnings/business during your stay in the hospital and convalescence, nor will it pay you if you end up with a permanent disability (social security may cover a pittance of the latter).

Re: 23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

#367

Post by sundarurfriend »

killjoywashere wrote: post #177

The real risk in my mind is that this opens market space for Beijing-backed companies like Novogene in Sacramento. They will occupy that space and every adjacent space as fast as they can. They'll sequence your tumor genetics, or your germline to get a better read on you're kid's inherited disease. And you'll never know it because your doctor contracted with them, they signed a BAA (so it's all legal, right). And the…

This "China = boogeyman" has become very common on HN and I'm surprised it's rarely called out for the xenophobia it represents. For most of the rest of the world, the US is not much more trustworthy than China, but Americans generally frame it as if control is transferring from some guardian angel to a horned devil.

I'm well aware of the horrors of the Chinese govt, but it's always talked about here as if a fresh new threat has appeared, rather than the source changing from West to East.

Re: 23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

#368

Post by throwaway2048 »

rantwasp wrote: post #339
kemyd wrote: post #122

Did anyone learn anything meaningful from these tests? I saw some results, for example, "I'm 3% Syrian, 10% Portugal, 8% Korean ...." etc., but do they provide more important results like "Sorry, you will have cancer in 2 years"?

yes + you can actually download the raw data and analyze it with a couple of other online tools (e.g. https://www.promethease.com ). It may be worth it especially if you have a rare disease - but you'll have to be the judge of that

So even more people get your data, horay

Re: 23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

#369

Post by madisfun »

skissane wrote: post #134
dmix wrote: post #35

Maybe the industry as a whole should stop handing stuff over to law enforcement and governments. I was going to buy it for 2 different people for christmas but both declined over privacy concerns as they read in the news they are being used in sweeping investigations. Given the number of wrongful accusations that litter history and the general trend away from any regard for privacy among security agencies this is a v…

> Maybe the industry as a whole should stop handing stuff over to law enforcement and governments. They can try saying "No", then the government will just get a court order to force them to do it. They don't really have a choice in the end – the only choice they have is whether they make it easy for the government ("you want our data? here have it!") or slightly harder ("I'll need to see a warrant first..." "No probl…

The companies like 23andMe can do anonymous tests. They can even sell "gift cards" for cash (or bitcoin, for digitally inclined). Don't deliver kits, let them be picked up without asking for an ID, just by the gift card number. As long as the test results are not linked to a specific address or name, it's fine.

They will still have clues about the state and the city and the IP address of the person. It's enough to do whatever research they may want to do with aggregate data. It's not good enough to sell this data to insurance companies and advertisers.

Re: 23andMe lays off 100 people as DNA test sales decline

#370

Post by TeMPOraL »

rurp wrote: post #315
mbreese wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, they are expressly prohibited from using your genetic information to make decisions about your coverage. It's the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (GINA) [1], where: > ... health insurers may not use genetic information to make eligibility, coverage, underwriting or premium-setting decisions. However, it doesn't apply to all insurance: > It does not cover long-term care insurance, life insurance, o…

This is good, but also leads to the obvious follow up question of how stringently it has and will be enforced. It's also illegal to lose PII and credit info for millions of people but, well, here we are.

Also, parallel construction. Also, data laundering - you drop DNA test data into a business analytics third party, and two data brokers later this arrives at your insurance company as a personal profile "created from data about your shopping habits collected on-line and off-line", or something like this. Don't know for sure if that's actually happening, but I assume it is.
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