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In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

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Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#41

Post by jammygit »

Despegar wrote: post #2

Excellent New Yorker piece about this (I submitted it to HN when it came out but it didn't get any traction): https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil... Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims.

Trump likes to target Mexicans too and openly has said he would like to be in Putin’s position with a dynasty. A surprising number of Americans are okay with this. Next election is going to be dramatic.

Then there’s China and its minorities being swept into mass concentration camps. Reminds me, I wonder what is happening in Hong Kong right now

Edit: update on hk https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-22/hong-kong...

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#42

Post by burgerzzz »

_4ziu wrote: post #18
coldcode wrote: post #8

Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option. Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance. I have no idea why anyone thinks its a good idea unless you are the person in charge but it seems to attract support.

It preys directly on human psychology by creating myths about how life used to be great and invoking nostalgia and frustration in broken people who just need guidance. No one who likes fascism sees it the way normal people do, because it's designed to trick people and weed its way into collective society and psyche. This is why we must make a continuous effort to stomp it before it spreads and never listen to people…

> broken people who just need guidance

What kind of guidance do you suggest?

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#43

Post by artificial »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #24
wtmt wrote: post #5

> NC: One thing that’s happened is the press has been pretty much muzzled. They are very uncritical. This is a big issue with mass media in India that many don’t realize or want to realize. Between — a) most of the mainstream media houses (except a few) not asking tough questions (but supporting the government for everything), b) the Supreme Court ignoring important cases and not hearing them for years and c) the amo…

You can substitute India for America and your points stand. I think there's lots of blame to go on companies like Cambridge analytica. That tech is literally a weapon of mass destruction.

Zygna did something similar to CA, so have previous campaigns. Plenty of blame to go with engagement algorithms and suppressing things with Orwellian terms like "unbiasing" and filtering auto complete results and having execs allow behavior since they're on the same side. I think the past is being looked at through rose colored lenses. New media enables more people to capture and share as opposed to the official mouth pieces of traditional broadcast media setting the story. Tech is just a thing, people inside echo chambers and settling for the first thing that agrees with them is the exact opposite of critical thinking.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#44

Post by jagannathtech »

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #20

I really struggle to understand the Indian right wing perspective. There is absolutely no practical way to achieve their goal of a theocratic nation with the country still being intact. As much as they might want to fantasize about it, you can't wish away 200M minorities. Nor can you economically progress if 200M minorities are ghettoized.

[flagged]

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#45

Post by scarecrowbob »

Here's a recent anarchist podcast on the subject. I note the political orientation because clearly that impacts the interpretation of the events, but it was an interesting listen, I thought:

https://itsgoingdown.org/an-anti-colonial-anarchist-analysis...

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#46

Post by WilliamEdward »

burgerzzz wrote: post #42
_4ziu wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It preys directly on human psychology by creating myths about how life used to be great and invoking nostalgia and frustration in broken people who just need guidance. No one who likes fascism sees it the way normal people do, because it's designed to trick people and weed its way into collective society and psyche. This is why we must make a continuous effort to stomp it before it spreads and never listen to people…

> broken people who just need guidance What kind of guidance do you suggest?

This is institutional, i'm not suggesting just 'talk it out' with people. You need a complete paradigm shift in legislation to even begin talking about the structures needed to be put in place to help educate people.

Until people can protect themselves against it, for now best we can do is make sure fascism is called out so it doesn't reach anyone.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#47

Post by seshagiric »

coldcode wrote: post #8

Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option. Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance. I have no idea why anyone thinks its a good idea unless you are the person in charge but it seems to attract support.

I think the precursors are very important in understanding this. In India, before the current Modi regime, there was a strong need for a strong leader. Congress (previous ruling party) suffers from Family rule and sycophants. Modi looked like a god-send to the masses. Now with a strong majority and into the 2nd term, the Fascist undertones are starting to emerge.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#48

Post by des_t »

I certainly don't support fascism but at least Hitler had some interest in science. Things are worse in India. We spent 0.8% of the GDP on Science and Technology. At the same time, a part of that (taxpayer money) is spent on Homeopathy, Ayurveda, and Cow Urine/Dung Research.

Our policy-makers absolutely have no idea what evidence in science means. Here is an entertaining collection of statements by Indian ministers,

=> “Science is a dwarf in front of astrology.” - Ramesh Pokhriyal Nishank, the minister of human resource development

=> “Since man is seen on Earth, he has always been a man. Nobody, including our ancestors, in written or oral, said they ever saw an ape turning into a human being.” - Satyapal Singh, the minister of state for human resource

=> "Vedic theory is greater than the theory of relativity." - Harsh Vardhan, the current Minister of Science and Technology

=> "Cow urine cures cancer" - current Bharatiya Janata Party member of parliament

=> "Maths never helped Einstein discover gravity" - Piyush Goel, minister of Railways and Commerce

=> "Ganesha proves plastic surgery existed in ancient India" - Modi, Prime Minister

More gems here: https://caravanmagazine.in/science/false-scientific-claims-m...

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#49

Post by kbenson »

bobthepanda wrote: post #31
kbenson wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With such a large percentage of the population of not just the country in question in the article, but also the entire world, I'm not sure they can be seen to be "the other" to the same degree as the Jews were, given how common they are. In 1933, there were an estimated 15 million Jews worldwide[1], 9 million or so in Europe. In Germany, with the largest Jewish population, they accounted for less than 1% of the popul…

Jews weren't a small population of some European countries' population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland > One-fifth of the Polish population perished during World War II; the 3,000,000 Polish Jews murdered in The Holocaust, who constituted 90% of Polish Jewry, made up half of all Poles killed during the war.[15][16] Given that Germany at the time had an official policy of expanding into it…

> Jews weren't a small population of some European countries' population

Yes, but those weren't the countries that had successful info campaigns against that sub-population, to my knowledge. It took Poland's defeat by Germany before Germany could enforce their own policies (developed in a nation with a much lower Jewish population). Indeed, your own source notes that in the pre-war period while there was increases anti-semitism, and some increased violence, there was nothing like what happened in Germany.

> Given that Germany at the time had an official policy of expanding into its neighboring countries, some with very high Jewish populations, your statement is at best misleading.

I don't think so, but I can see how you might think so. I believe I misinterpreted what the top level comment was trying to express, and as such my comment isn't really addressing that. I think because of this you're also inferring that my comment is meant to convey something it's not.

So, to clarify, yes, I believe Fascism is on the rise and targeted at Muslims this time. I don't think it's the same as what happened in Germany for the reasons I noted, which wasn't what was stated so it's a bit of a non-sequitur on my part, but it is where my mind went when I was reading it.

Re: In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

#50

Post by kbenson »

Despegar wrote: post #32
kbenson wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With such a large percentage of the population of not just the country in question in the article, but also the entire world, I'm not sure they can be seen to be "the other" to the same degree as the Jews were, given how common they are. In 1933, there were an estimated 15 million Jews worldwide[1], 9 million or so in Europe. In Germany, with the largest Jewish population, they accounted for less than 1% of the popul…

[flagged]

I didn't want to imply fascism wasn't on the rise, just some differences I saw. That said, as I covered in a cousin comment, I believe I was misinterpreting what you were trying to express to some degree.
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