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NOAA Satellites Helped Save a Record 421 Lives in 2019

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Re: NOAA Satellites Helped Save a Record 421 Lives in 2019

#21

Post by btashton »

Analemma_ wrote: post #16
jxcl wrote: post #2

I have one of these beacons and take it with me most times I'm going out alone into the wilderness. I don't want to be the guy who had to cut his own arm off after it got trapped by a falling boulder. That being said, this is an interesting spin on the number. I've been hearing from friends on Search and Rescue crews that an increasing number of people are going out hiking being completely unprepared for any possible…

Some Search and Rescue organizations now bill you if they determine you had to be rescued because of gross negligence (if you were prepared and simply unlucky, it's still free). This can be tens of thousands of dollars if they had to use helicopters and the like.

There is a lot packed into the pay for search and rescue model. One of the last things I want someone to be doing in an emergency situation is to be thinking can I afford help right now or should I just try harder to get off this cliff with a broken ankle. Then there is the question of what really is the cost. If a helicopter is involved frequently the operation cost if figured in, but these in the US are almost always military helicopters and they count these operations towards training hours. I would much rather have those hours spent to helping someone in danger than burning fuel for no emergency.

Re: NOAA Satellites Helped Save a Record 421 Lives in 2019

#23

Post by bluGill »

jxramos wrote: post #15
vegardx wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see some actual statistics on this. This assumes that people knowingly do something dangerous and are choosing to ignore it because they think someone can just come and save them. I would argue that this is unlikely, unprepared people are unprepared in all aspects of it. Carrying a cellphone doens't mean they thought of it as some kind of security measurement. People just rarely go somewhere without it. T…

I heard some organizations try to collect fees from repeated offenders who tax search and rescue operations too frequently. Others collect under situations of negligence. https://www.outsideonline.com/1986496/search-and-rescue-publ...

I've heard of some organizations rejecting this because if it wasn't for all the unprepared people heading out and getting in over their head they would have to pay someone to go out an pretend to need rescued for training purposes. Having someone who really needs help is much better training than a planned mission - even if they shouldn't have needed help.

Your mileage may vary, each rescue team has different situations. In some areas they get too many calls (remember a call takes the rescuers away from their family and other thing they would do instead) and should do something about those who didn't make at least some attempt to be prepared.

Re: NOAA Satellites Helped Save a Record 421 Lives in 2019

#25

Post by MayeulC »

bluGill wrote: post #23
jxramos wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard some organizations try to collect fees from repeated offenders who tax search and rescue operations too frequently. Others collect under situations of negligence. https://www.outsideonline.com/1986496/search-and-rescue-publ...

I've heard of some organizations rejecting this because if it wasn't for all the unprepared people heading out and getting in over their head they would have to pay someone to go out an pretend to need rescued for training purposes. Having someone who really needs help is much better training than a planned mission - even if they shouldn't have needed help. Your mileage may vary, each rescue team has different situat…

Well, that is an interesting take, but if collecting such a tax really helped reduce the number of people going out unprepared, thus needing help, it would really be a no-brainer to do so, as it could avoid people getting hurt or killed in the first place.

Re: NOAA Satellites Helped Save a Record 421 Lives in 2019

#26

Post by munificent »

jxcl wrote: post #2

I have one of these beacons and take it with me most times I'm going out alone into the wilderness. I don't want to be the guy who had to cut his own arm off after it got trapped by a falling boulder. That being said, this is an interesting spin on the number. I've been hearing from friends on Search and Rescue crews that an increasing number of people are going out hiking being completely unprepared for any possible…

Risk compensation [0] has been studied and gets a lot of press because it tickles that combination of psychology + counter-intuitive result + play into narrative that people suck.

As far as I know, though, most modern studies show that while there is some amount of risk compensation (people engage in riskier behavior after adopting a safety apparatus), the compensation is less than the benefit of the safety measure.

With beacons in particular, a potential compounding factor is that many people may not have gone out into the wilderness at all before beacons became available. So maybe there is a net increase in beacon usage but it could be because of an even greater increase in outdoor participation.

I think it's a net good for people to spend time in the outdoors, both for them personally and because it encourages society as a whole to prioritize preserving the environment. So if that results in more people needing to be rescued, it may still be worth it.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Re: NOAA Satellites Helped Save a Record 421 Lives in 2019

#27

Post by munificent »

AYBABTME wrote: post #11

I bought one of these PLBs after spending 12h down a canyon with a broken ankle and no cell reception. Friends had to hike back out of the canyon and hike then drive for hours to get help. Never again. Since then I got a sailboat and it's pretty standard in that field to have EPIRB, PLBs and the likes. There's life-vests that come with mini-PLBs in them. It's a bit pricey but it's essential in my opinion. I was lucky…

> Since then I got a sailboat and it's pretty standard in that field to have EPIRB

Should be more than just common. My understanding is that US maritime mandates that you must have a functioning EPIRB if you are on open waters.

Re: NOAA Satellites Helped Save a Record 421 Lives in 2019

#28

Post by glitcher »

wbl wrote: post #17
pgrote wrote: post #8

Incredible service. Is there a payment required for rescue services? For instance, does the Coast Guard charge the six people rescued when the boat sank?

Not on the sea. By old and ancient tradition all who sail come in aid to their brothers in need.

Off topic, but this reminded me of the stark contrast between this and my state's "stupid motorist law"

> any motorist who becomes stranded after driving around barricades to enter a flooded stretch of roadway may be charged for the cost of their rescue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupid_Motorist_Law

Re: NOAA Satellites Helped Save a Record 421 Lives in 2019

#29

Post by nexuist »

7952 wrote: post #19
wbl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not on the sea. By old and ancient tradition all who sail come in aid to their brothers in need.

Although salvage laws do allow a reward for recovery of property.

There's a funny story from the 80s in which a cargo ship crew was awarded an exorbitant sum of money from the Royal Navy when one of their Harrier pilots got disoriented and, running out of fuel, chose to land on a van parked on the deck of the ship...

Re: NOAA Satellites Helped Save a Record 421 Lives in 2019

#30

Post by japhyr »

bluGill wrote: post #23
jxramos wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard some organizations try to collect fees from repeated offenders who tax search and rescue operations too frequently. Others collect under situations of negligence. https://www.outsideonline.com/1986496/search-and-rescue-publ...

I've heard of some organizations rejecting this because if it wasn't for all the unprepared people heading out and getting in over their head they would have to pay someone to go out an pretend to need rescued for training purposes. Having someone who really needs help is much better training than a planned mission - even if they shouldn't have needed help. Your mileage may vary, each rescue team has different situat…

I've been involved in mountain rescue for almost 20 years now. The main reason I've heard over the years for not charging for rescue is that it causes people to delay asking for help. This results in more high-risk calls for rescuers, and worse outcomes for people in need of rescue.

In most situations, the cost of a rescue is not nearly as significant as media accounts portray. People love to cite the cost of helicopters in USCG rescues. USCG pilots need to fly a certain number of hours; those hours can come from missions or training sessions. When they fly more missions, they reduce their training hours.

Creating a rescue policy for really high-traffic areas like the most popular national parks is a different story. Those are outlier situations, and we shouldn't have the same policy for SAR in average rural areas that we do for popular national parks.

Edit: I meant to add another reason for not charging for rescue. I have been on missions where we reached the missing person, and the person initially refused our help because they thought we were going to charge them. The same conversation played out on the mountain that we're seeing play out in the comments here. In the end, these people are very happy to receive the assistance they needed; they were not going to get out of the mountains on their own.

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