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Tin Found in Israel from 3k Years Ago Comes from Cornwall

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Re: Tin Found in Israel from 3k Years Ago Comes from Cornwall

#101

Post by [deleted] »

rmah wrote: post #41
Retric wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large chunk of that is simply differences in population sizes. The current US population is likely larger than the global population in 1,000 CE. Further, children used to make up a larger chunk of the population exaggerating the differences. So, it was often possible to scale up production even more, but there where not enough customers to justify it.

The vast majority of limited trade during pre-industrial times is due to the inefficiency of (i.e. cost) of long range transportation. A single modern cargo ship can carry more cargo in a single voyage than an entire years worth of the entire medieval world's cargo fleets. And at a price that is few orders of magnitude cheaper (per ton). Not that it mattered since production of everything was, by today's standards, a…

[deleted]

Re: Tin Found in Israel from 3k Years Ago Comes from Cornwall

#102

Post by mythrwy »

ncmncm wrote: post #46
avip wrote: post #42

Weird article. It reads as-if it's a new discovery, yet the "tin comes from England" meme appears in 2K yo maps ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterides ). In the "Haifa marine Museum" you've never heard of, there are tin pieces found in Phoenician ships, that's ~3K yo and IIRC the sign even says the Tin is from today's England. [edit: of course this piece could be referencing new confirmation or new methodology…

People have always suspected Bronze-age tin might have come from England, but most historians never took it seriously because it implied a lot more long-distance commerce than they believed was possible then. Charred cloves from the Moluccas (south of the Philippines) were recently found in in a jar in burnt-out remains of a 4000-year-old middle-class kitchen in Syria.

I have no idea why that would be believed impossible.

The Phoenicians are reported to have circumvented Africa and when the voyaging party returned they reported Phoenician colonies on the Atlantic coast of Africa before entering the Mediterranean. This was done under contract for an Egyptian pharaoh, and from what I understand, the claim that the sun was on their right side as they rounded the southern tip of Africa, although viewed with derision in the ancient world is now widely accepted as evidence they did indeed make this trip.

At any rate, they were amazing sailors for the ancient world and it would be much harder to believe they didn't make the shortish trip up the coast of Europe to the British Isles then the reverse in my opinion.

But as for tin, I thought it was well known tin came from the British Isles. Could this tin have been brought in earlier when Bronze Age commerce was at it's height? Did the Bronze Age collapse really collapse _all_ trade and commerce and travel? Doubtful. Anyway, interesting find but not really a novel story.

Re: Tin Found in Israel from 3k Years Ago Comes from Cornwall

#103

Post by mikhailfranco »

avip wrote: post #42

Weird article. It reads as-if it's a new discovery, yet the "tin comes from England" meme appears in 2K yo maps ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterides ). In the "Haifa marine Museum" you've never heard of, there are tin pieces found in Phoenician ships, that's ~3K yo and IIRC the sign even says the Tin is from today's England. [edit: of course this piece could be referencing new confirmation or new methodology…

The phrase 'Tin Isles' referring to Britain has a long history.

An early reference is that inventor of 'History' himself [Herodotus, 430BC]:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterides

The name 'Britain' comes from the Phoenician name 'Baratanac', which means 'Tin Isles'. The fact that they supplied tin to the Near East from their home in Tyre is provided in the Old Testament [Ezekiel, ~600BC]:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/istorijabalkana/baratanac-t2...

Re: Tin Found in Israel from 3k Years Ago Comes from Cornwall

#104

Post by ncmncm »

mythrwy wrote: post #102
ncmncm wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have always suspected Bronze-age tin might have come from England, but most historians never took it seriously because it implied a lot more long-distance commerce than they believed was possible then. Charred cloves from the Moluccas (south of the Philippines) were recently found in in a jar in burnt-out remains of a 4000-year-old middle-class kitchen in Syria.

I have no idea why that would be believed impossible. The Phoenicians are reported to have circumvented Africa and when the voyaging party returned they reported Phoenician colonies on the Atlantic coast of Africa before entering the Mediterranean. This was done under contract for an Egyptian pharaoh, and from what I understand, the claim that the sun was on their right side as they rounded the southern tip of Africa…

It collapsed all record-keeping, anyway. The people who sacked the cities were probably very bad trading partners. It would not be safe to beach a ship. Trade with Egypt would still be possible, but stopovers elsewhere would be hazardous.

There is no natural state of low-friction trade. It has to develop very slowly over centuries.

Re: Tin Found in Israel from 3k Years Ago Comes from Cornwall

#105

Post by keiferski »

simonh wrote: post #91
keiferski wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, that’s a false equivalency. Ancient economies had far less impact on each other, even if they did trade some things occasionally. Today, economies are far more global in an interconnected sense; if America, China or the EU have a recession, the rest of the world probably does too. The same scenario would not be true a couple thousand years ago.

Several Roman emperors banned silk dresses because the silk trade was draining all the gold coinage out of the Imperial economy.

Sure, but when the Roman Empire collapsed, it didn’t take the rest of the world with it. If the US went through a similar scenario, it would have a dramatic impact on pretty much everyone.

Re: Tin Found in Israel from 3k Years Ago Comes from Cornwall

#106

Post by Gravityloss »

If you visit the Heraklion archeological museum on Crete, they have an astonishingly good timeline of the development of the Minoans (how they are called nowadays). Starting from stone age, and how they entered the bronze age. They were very established by 1700 BC. They were selling olive oil and pottery (at least) and importing tin and copper far and wide. You can see the bronze saws that were used to build ships and create a naval power and ability to trade.

I can also recommend visiting Knossos and hiring a local guide. It is not crowded and not too hot off season.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxhide_ingot

Re: Tin Found in Israel from 3k Years Ago Comes from Cornwall

#107

Post by jovrtn »

mikhailfranco wrote: post #103
avip wrote: post #42

Weird article. It reads as-if it's a new discovery, yet the "tin comes from England" meme appears in 2K yo maps ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterides ). In the "Haifa marine Museum" you've never heard of, there are tin pieces found in Phoenician ships, that's ~3K yo and IIRC the sign even says the Tin is from today's England. [edit: of course this piece could be referencing new confirmation or new methodology…

The phrase 'Tin Isles' referring to Britain has a long history. An early reference is that inventor of 'History' himself [Herodotus, 430BC]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiterides The name 'Britain' comes from the Phoenician name 'Baratanac' , which means 'Tin Isles' . The fact that they supplied tin to the Near East from their home in Tyre is provided in the Old Testament [Ezekiel, ~600BC]: https://www.tapatalk.…

That etymology for 'Britain' doesn't seem to be referenced anywhere else—the link in the post you've linked to hasn't worked since 2003 and doesn't cite its source either. Seems the name derives from Brythonic (British Celtic) and meant "the painted ones" or "the tattooed folk" rather than a reference to tin. The etymological path it took was (roughly): Brythonic -> Ancient Greek (by way of the Greek explorer Pytheas) -> Latin -> Old English/Middle English/Old French -> Modern English [0][1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_(place_name)

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Britain

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