Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have a little tip for you; right-click your back arrow, and choose your search page from the list.
At least on iOS Safari there's this bug (feels like it's always been there, maybe content blocker related?) where sometimes a search simply gets eaten. The browser somehow thinks you went from nowhere straight to the page you're on, even though you went past a Google results page. I assume it's somehow redirect-related and that's why these sites tend to trigger it.
Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me
311–320 of 335 posts
Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me
#312Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Part of the reason why everyone is trying to detect bots is because bots will very, very rapidly eat up your bandwidth and CPU time. It is? Thought bot detection was only done during registration etc. to stop them from sending spam etc. to real users. If anything the javascript world we live in helps combat this. You need insane resources on the client just to have a page open. Several orders of magnitude more than…
In that case, an IP or IP block throttling is good enough. Except then there are those pesky CGNATs to handle including Chinese Great Wall. Anyway, high profile spammers will emulate enough of the browser to render any measure based on browser anomaly detection worthless. Including using a headless browser. The only way to defeat them would be too put some quite computationally intensive JS operation... (On par with…
Do you think a botnet with 10k machines is going to be meaningfully inhibited by making each machine's cpu run calculations for a second or two for each submission?
I'm sure reCAPTCHA looks at the IP and IP block as one of the inputs to its ML algorithm, but as one or two of perhaps a dozen different features - including mouse movement and/or keyboard input, which is quite a bit harder to fake.
Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me
#313Earlier quoted context omitted.
My wild unfounded guess: they’re trying to make it gender-neutral.
Pretty much. Link to probably the first article I saw using it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20673409 > It’s the same thing, recognizing that the MITM is neither male, nor human at all. I don't see why this is important for a technical term. People hear the term as a slug, a group of words, not as discrete ones. No one actually pictures a man or anything else in the middle upon hearing the term. The differenc…
Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, you can't really talk about downsides of Recaptcha/Cloudflare without also acknowledging the extreme amount of malicious actors and abuse on the internet. We're in a "this is why we can't have nice things" predicament and you have malicious actors to thank for that, yet most people on HN only seem capable of attacking the few affordable solutions to that problem. I'm even down with the theory that Cloudflare is…
> Let's hear some real solutions. It's by no means a full solution (there likely is no single full solution), and it may even be a bad solution -- but lately I've been trying to think about what the Internet would look like if we didn't have a massive arbitrage potential around server requests. Part of the reason why everyone is trying to detect bots is because bots will very, very rapidly eat up your bandwidth and C…
This sort of solution is frequently proposed but doesn't work, because:
• Serving costs are rarely the problem. Normally it's annoying actions taken by spammers and the bad reaction of valuable users that matters, not the machine cost of serving them.
There are occasional exceptions. Web search engines ban bots because left unchecked they can consume vast CPU resources but never click ads. However, they only get so much bot traffic because of SEO scraping. Most sites don't have an equivalent problem.
• There is no payment system that can do what you want. All attempts at creating one have failed for various hard reasons.
• You would lose all your users. From a user's perspective I want to access free content. I don't want to make micropayments for it, I especially don't want surge pricing that appears unrelated to content. Sites that use more typical spam fighting techniques to fend off DDoS attacks or useless bot traffic can vend their content to human users for free, well enough that only Linux users doing weird stuff get excluded (hint: this is a tiny sliver of traffic, not even a percentage of traffic but more like an occasional nuisance).
• You would kill off search engine competition. Because you benefit from crawlers, you'd zero rate "good" web bots using some whitelist. Now to make a new search engine I have to pay vast sums in bot fees whilst my rich competitors pay nothing. This makes an already difficult task financially insurmountable.
The current approach of using lots of heuristics, JavaScript probes and various other undocumented/obscure tricks works well. Cases like this one are rare, caused by users doing weird stuff like committing protocol violations and such users can typically escalate and get attention from the right operators quickly. There are few reasons to create a vast new infrastructure.
Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
My wild unfounded guess: they’re trying to make it gender-neutral.
Pretty much. Link to probably the first article I saw using it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20673409 > It’s the same thing, recognizing that the MITM is neither male, nor human at all. I don't see why this is important for a technical term. People hear the term as a slug, a group of words, not as discrete ones. No one actually pictures a man or anything else in the middle upon hearing the term. The differenc…
Thanks, I’ve always wanted someone to mansplain to me how I hear terms and what I picture while I hear them.
Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me
#316Earlier quoted context omitted.
Neo-Nazi sites, for better or worse (obviously: worse) should still be on the Internet. If only for the rest of us to point at as an example of what not to do. Censorship is a bit like antibiotics: short-term positive impact but long-term negative impact. Neo-Nazis are not a threat to anyone, anywhere, in any way. We can survive their stupid web page, and have no need to censor it. The cure is MUCH worse than the dis…
> UPDATE: I love how I get downvotes and literally NO ONE has engaged with my core argument, that censorship is a bit like antibiotics: short-term positive impact but long-term negative impact. Because it's absolutely insane to suggest that zero people/websites should use antibiotics. The problem with antibiotics is when they're given out in huge amounts with barely any reason. And the only reason that's bad is becau…
Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me
#317Earlier quoted context omitted.
Neo-Nazi sites, for better or worse (obviously: worse) should still be on the Internet. If only for the rest of us to point at as an example of what not to do. Censorship is a bit like antibiotics: short-term positive impact but long-term negative impact. Neo-Nazis are not a threat to anyone, anywhere, in any way. We can survive their stupid web page, and have no need to censor it. The cure is MUCH worse than the dis…
> UPDATE: I love how I get downvotes and literally NO ONE has engaged with my core argument, that censorship is a bit like antibiotics: short-term positive impact but long-term negative impact. Because it's absolutely insane to suggest that zero people/websites should use antibiotics. The problem with antibiotics is when they're given out in huge amounts with barely any reason. And the only reason that's bad is becau…
The Daily Stormer went on to be banned by Google Domains, and a number of other registrars (all of whom had previously not banned customers for political speech). So yes, the "anti-biotic" had to be repeatedly prescribed—just not by CloudFlare. In the end, it was all for not: The Daily Stormer is still up and running today.[0]
It gets worse. After CloudFlare's actions on The Daily Stormer, they were pressured to follow it up with another political speech ban, this time on 8chan. It ABSOLUTELY had a follow on effect, and not just for CloudFlare. 8chan (of course) is still running.[1]
CloudFlare's censorship actions were then followed up by censorship of political speech across huge platforms including Facebook, Google/YouTube, Apple, and Twitter (supposedly "the free speech wing of the free speech party"[2]). For instance, Alex Jones was banned by all of them almost one year after the failed attempt to erase The Daily Stormer off of the Internet. At the time, he had an audience estimated at 20 million and had been on the air since the 90s.
Internet censorship is at all time highs and CloudFlare was at the forefront of making that happen.
[0] https://dailystormer.name/
[1] https://8kun.top/index.html
[2] https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/mar/22/twitter-tony-w...
Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me
#318Earlier quoted context omitted.
I oppose CloudFlare's decision because, culturally, it's un-American—and they are an American company. I expect all Americans, and especially the most prosperous and successful Americans—like the CEO of CloudFlare—to uphold those values. I would 100% support legislation requiring anyone providing a platform or infrastructure, such as CloudFlare, to have a 100% neutral policy as to who they provide service to. It's a…
That is pretty tricky for a case like this, though.... DDOS protection is pretty expensive, and various CDNs have dropped customers who become more costly than they are worth. If they had phrased this as "we have decided to drop them because the DDOSes they were experiencing were more expensive than the money we were making from them", would you have been ok with them dropping them? Or would they be required to publi…
If you want to censor someone, just censor them! Trying to come up with PR gobbledygook to make the action seem less bad is lame as fuck.
That said, your actual argument about "cost" I reject. Infrastructure providers should be required to service everyone, even though some cost more than others. Indeed, that's the whole point—imagine if AT&T didn't have to handle phone service for the whole United States, and instead only did more profitable, cheaper urban centers?
I'm more than willing to pay a small amount more so that everyone is treated equally. That's just part of living in a society.
Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me
#319Earlier quoted context omitted.
So can do Falkon :) Having a Chrome UA is a MUST on webkit based browsers if you want Google's taxing services such as Earth/Maps/Gmail and so on being faster and smoother than ever. Seriously. Once you open Street View on luakit/vimb with a Chrome UA, the diff is night and day.
I tried with Street View im vimb. I don't see any difference - it's slow to the point of being almost unusable, while it works fine in qutebrowser.
set hardware-aceleration-policy=always
set webgl=trueRe: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me
#320Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is it that something as malleable as a user-agent string trips these kinds of sensors? If I were to write a bot, copying current browsers' user-agents is literally the first thing I'd do
It really hits home the point of how shitty the web has become. Ad companies and malware distributors come up with bad and worse ways to interfere with my browsing, and the “good guys” need to match with increasingly invasive and fragile anti measures. Sort of like having to take of your shoes when you board a plane. If that’s what it takes, isn’t it just better to stay home?
The web sucks. Society/civilization is shaking in its foundations.
I just wish the passive non-violent approach would work. It worked for Gandhi, but in this day?
I feel we're all getting overrun by technology. Unfortunately, as it could have been the opposite.