Live data from Hacker News

Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

bbc.co.uk

111–120 of 144 posts

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#111

One's career isnt always the sole reason for burnout, many times one's workload is totally fine, but combined with their work commute, family and other outside influences, they become burned out. We need to take a holistic look at burnout and not just attribute it to career.

This isn't meant to play down others But seeing comments here, I feel they don't know what slavery is like or have come close to working like it.

My dad in his mid 30s worked 13 hours a day + house work...he was a single parent back in 2011. There were no fixed weekends off. Sometimes, there would be a cool off season (heavy rain) but that's it. It was also pretty hard physical labor outside on a bike in 45C+ for hours in long summers. There was no AC or air cooler.

He earned $220 monthly as a salary after taxes. Of course, this was/is a small town and costs are not much but that was still pretty tight for a family of two - one of which was a small kid.

People at that stage don't complain anymore about work. They don't say anything at all about it. They just continue without speaking or showing any signs of burnout. The burnout may be realised for a short duration but afterwards, it's normal. I have done this comparison before and I think it still holds true. You are like a fighter jet or ambulance. Even if you are damaged, you can't stop and worry about it. There are people to look after or protect and without you, they will suffer. This is pretty counterproductive in practice. First, you will deteriorate your health and ignore any suggestions to improve short term issues. Second comes the switch from short term health problems to long term ones, this is a point of denial. At this point, those people stop caring about what happens to them and will dive even deeper.

I don't see my dad and think, "oh he looks like a slave". (Neither does he because he thinks it will pay off and he doesn't have time to be self aware of how much "slave" he is)

In any case, I feel slave is a pretty bad remark to describe a person.

I hope some people in the comments realise this.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#112
post #90
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what if the 'recommended time off to recover' is wrong? I believe that burnout comes from a missing a reward that is expected after protracted and intense labor, thereby training your brain that labor = bad. Maybe the right thing to do is to retrain your brain that labor = good, with primary stimuli. Making green dots appear is definitely one very effective way to get over burnout. I haven't had a major burnout incid…

As someone who hit the brick wall pretty hard at the end of last millennium this is the best most relatable description I've seen. Does anyone know if there has been any research into this explanation and, if so any pointers to where I can read more?

Sources like the book “Tiny Habits” say that feeling successful often builds momentum and gets you to perform better.

I’d guess that the opposite is also true. Feeling unsuccessful too much would erode and destroy whatever it is you’re bringing to the table.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#113

A lot of companies are actively factoring this into their HR model. Their model is to hire fresh people and burn them out. Increasingly this is the direction western corporations are moving. Their ideal model is: place performance quotas above long term sustainability, people then burn themselves out, you then fire them for performance reasons, and you have them on an aggressive noncompete and threaten them with it w…

> Their model is to hire fresh people and burn them out. When I was at Amazon, this was the feeling with some employees around me: The stack-ranking meant they were made to a rat-race every year. I can't seem to recall who, but someone higher-up let it slip when quizzed about higher attrition rate (back in 2010s) that Amazon believed in evolution , and that that meant the slow would eventually give the way for the fa…

I was wondering if/when Amazon would get mentioned in this thread, lol.

---

Cop-out rationalization: conventional wisdom holds that IT/CS folks should jump every 2-3 years or they're leaving money on the table -- and turnover rates reflect that. They're going in 2 years anyway, so get what you want out of them before they go. Most of them can't write fizzbuzz anyway, and it's easy to poach better talent by throwing money at them.

> Interestingly, and in my observation, the managers got more leeway than individual contributors in terms of evolving slowly

Managers run the system, so the system evolves to support them and their needs, like a more reasonable pace. Another way to look at it is if you've made it through the burnout phase then you're going to hang around longer, so it makes sense to hold on to proven performers who have much longer employment horizons.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#114
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some ways we're moving to something worse than slavery. At least with slaves they were seen as "assets" rather than "temporary rentals". They had to take care of them out of necessity, so their evil had that limit on it. Some of us prefer burnout at reasonable pay than being raped, beaten, and denied all freedoms.

> raped, beaten, and denied all freedoms. Towards the later stages of slavery, the first 2 were outright illegal, and the third is somewhere on par with wage slavery today. It sounds like a hot take on the surface, but modern wage slavery is objectively worse than late-stage actual slavery in some regards. We have not really progressed as society. The only thing that has really advanced is the availability of enterta…

> Fun fact: medieval serfs had about 4 months of 'free' time each year. Of course it still included housekeeping and various chores, but it was nothing compared to the load of full time employment that everyone experiences today almost all year round.

I can only speak for myself here, but I work a full-time job as an SWE.

There are 52 weeks in a year, I have weekends off - that there is 104 days, or (roughly) 3 months of "free time" each year.

Factor in my PTO allowances, plus the fact that I only work 8 hour days, factor out the commute time (about 1-1.5 hours each day), and sleep time...

I'm pretty sure I have at least 4 months of "free time" available each year.

Ultimately, though, it's not the amount - it's what you do with that free time that matters.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#116
post #99
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to say that my own experience is that people over 40 work less and at the same time seem to make more money.

This is highly inaccurate depending on where the upper bound of age is (ie excluding retirees or part timers). For instance, the average person above 40 years of age have much more time to focus on work: Children already grown, not frequently going out to bars or staying up late etc.

Children already grown?

These days, for various reasons people are having children in their mid-to-late 30s, and waiting closer and closer to 40 to start having children (many then find out they can't because they left it too late).

For many, the children are not grown and old enough to leave home until the parents hit mid 50s.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#117
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fresh college graduate at age 22 does not understand what 60-100 hours mean. The closest frame of reference they have is pulling an all nighter before an exam or to get a term project done. They can't contemplate their romantic relationship falling apart, the lack of feedback resulting in continuous self doubt keeping them up at night when they're supposed to be resting or how shallow friendships between colleagues…

From my friends who recently graduated and took these jobs in nyc, this wasnt so suprising. They expected to work 10-12 hour days. The familial stuff sucks if you were planning on shacking up at 23, but most people just work their day then drink aggresively in midtown before ubering back to whatever 2k/mo studio tenement they managed to find in brooklyn. Take a boozy trip to the hamptons a couple times in the summer,…

That’s the thing about burnout; it feels great because you’re so productive and respected ... until one day your energy is gone. It might take years, it depends on how much support you get from people around at managing your stress, and of course it depends on your own ability to manage it too. I’m skeptical of how effective toys like a Rolex and booze is long term at easing the stress.

My ex-wife felt like she was on top of the world until she was burnt out and it developed into full fledged depression at age 27. I’m not saying everyone will end up like her, everyone won’t develop lung cancer from smoking either.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#118

Anyone have recommendations for dealing with burnout early(3 years) into their career?

It really depends on a number of factors and how severe the burnout is. If there are other factors involved (stressful commute, interpersonal problems), make sure you deal with those.

If the burnout is mild and you're just working too hard, the solution is to take a break and reduce your hours.

If you're starting to suffer from CFS, then the best solution is a long-term break from work, and a serious re-evaluation of whether you want to continue working there.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#119

A lot of companies are actively factoring this into their HR model. Their model is to hire fresh people and burn them out. Increasingly this is the direction western corporations are moving. Their ideal model is: place performance quotas above long term sustainability, people then burn themselves out, you then fire them for performance reasons, and you have them on an aggressive noncompete and threaten them with it w…

Serfdom is a better metaphor. Microserfs was published in 1994:

“The plot of the novel has two distinct movements: the events at Microsoft in Redmond, Washington, and the move to Silicon Valley and the "Oop!" project.”

”The novel begins in Redmond as the characters are working on different projects at Microsoft's main campus. Life at the campus feels like a feudalistic society, with Bill Gates as the lord, and the employees the serfs. The majority of the main characters...are living together in a "geek house", and their lives are dedicated to their projects and the company. Daniel's foundations are shaken when his father, a longtime employee of IBM, is laid off. The lifespan of a Microsoft coder weighs heavily on Daniel's mind.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microserfs

Turns out the author was onto something:

”When Microserfs first came out, most people thought it was a tightly focused anthropological look at a tiny group of historically transient information workers in the American Pacific Northwest. It turns out they were forming a template of the way everyone else in the world works in and around information. As time went on it became a lot broader, instead of a lot narrower, which is what happened with Generation X.”

— Coupland, The Times, June 1998

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#120
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A serious mental-health crisis inspired her new app, designed to help people track their mental health in the same way they might track their diet, weight or workouts, and look for correlations in data between, for example, anxiety levels and sleep, or caffeine consumption and work stress. Yes, it appears to be that.

" "We're built as a tracking-performance tool to help people enhance their lives and their mental fitness." " She's been the addict, now she's the dealer.

The lady who developed the app is a different person from the one who suffered the burnout. If you want to understand or cope with burnout, best just ignore the last part of the article.
Post reply on HN