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Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#91

Post by cableshaft »

throwlaplace wrote: post #68
lvturner wrote: post #4

I think the scariest thing about burn-out, is that not everyone is financially able to take the recommended time off to recover - what then? I've certainly been close to being in this boat, had to take a job before I fully recovered, so took one I felt might be a bit lighter on the load and still give me some chance of recovery. Pleased to report it has been mostly successful.

99% of the world has a job they can't afford to take leave from. and if you imagine that 99% of the world doesn't have a job that's taxing enough that they'd be burnt out then you don't understand menial labor and how utterly psychologically exhausting it is to do repetitive boring tasks. So what then? People suffer and struggle and try to improve the lives of their children and then they die. I say all this not beca…

I've done both repetitive boring jobs and mentally taxing jobs.

Repetitive boring jobs were not psychologically exhausting for me, at least the ones I did (I worked a couple of warehouse jobs one sorting and inspecting parts before they were sent to an assembly line, and another sorting merchandise coming off a truck, stuffing envelopes/shrinkwrapping for shipping and receiving, data entry, etc).

They can be physically exhausting, especially if you work long hours, but not psychologically. Since my brain didn't need to be taxed I got to let my mind wander and think about things for 8+ hours a day, or have audiobooks play, or whatever, and I still had mental energy afterwards to work on personal projects.

Mentally taxing jobs steal that energy away from you. They tend to pay more, but they take your creative and mental energy away in exchange. And my mental and creative energy is more valuable to me. At least with the more physical jobs I was able to stay in shape a lot more easily.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#92

Post by ianleeclark »

leftyted wrote: post #79
epicgiga wrote: post #14

A lot of companies are actively factoring this into their HR model. Their model is to hire fresh people and burn them out. Increasingly this is the direction western corporations are moving. Their ideal model is: place performance quotas above long term sustainability, people then burn themselves out, you then fire them for performance reasons, and you have them on an aggressive noncompete and threaten them with it w…

There is a difference between being a slave i.e. being owned and being a "wage slave" i.e. operating under significant coercion. We are all coerced to some degree; that's part of being an organism (coerced by nature) and living in a society (coerced by the crushing weight of social interactions). But we aren't owned . Though it's not your intention, this blurring of categories justifies real slavery. If everyone is a…

In Byung-Hul Chan's book, "Burnout Society," he lists this self-delusion of freedom as a foundational component of the emergence of burnout.

It's a good book, I'd recommend it, and you can draw your own conclusions from reading it. It's like 80 pages, too.

> But we aren't owned.

This is a weird subjective/objective thing. While people may not be chattel slaves to a slaveowner, there is a case to be made of bonded/indentured labor for many. The view of chattel slavery seems to fit well into dominant narratives, as it relies on there being a subject who is enslaving another. Modern conceptions of indentured labor, however, are under an objective threat of violence, and this doesn't fit well into dominant narratives of how exploitation works.

> If everyone is a slave then no one is a slave.

There's nothing indicating that the parent comment believes that everyone is a slave. In fact, there's nothing indicating in the parent comment that he believes we are enslaved.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#93

Post by ssully »

epicgiga wrote: post #14

A lot of companies are actively factoring this into their HR model. Their model is to hire fresh people and burn them out. Increasingly this is the direction western corporations are moving. Their ideal model is: place performance quotas above long term sustainability, people then burn themselves out, you then fire them for performance reasons, and you have them on an aggressive noncompete and threaten them with it w…

You had a really solid post up until the slavery bit. You really need to educate yourself on the history of slavery if you think we are anywhere close to moving to something worse then slavery.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#94

Post by giggles_giggles »

commandlinefan wrote: post #89
leftyted wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between being a slave i.e. being owned and being a "wage slave" i.e. operating under significant coercion. We are all coerced to some degree; that's part of being an organism (coerced by nature) and living in a society (coerced by the crushing weight of social interactions). But we aren't owned . Though it's not your intention, this blurring of categories justifies real slavery. If everyone is a…

(Not OP but) I know it’s an unreasonable and probably inappropriate comparison, but I’m also old enough to have watched the demographics of professional computer programming shift from mostly white guys managing mostly other white guys to mostly white guys managing mostly brown people. I really don’t think it’s my imagination that at least some of the mostly white guys doing the managing have adopted more and more of…

This IS an unreasonable and inappropriate comparison. Anecdotally I've been overworked by a diverse group of shitty bosses of a variety of races, nationalities, and genders over the years. Nobody has a monopoly on shitty management. Singling out white men as uniquely shitty managers and then slapping on "plantation driver" is super racist!

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#95

Post by pimmen »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #51

Just gonna say it, I doubt the solution is yet more apps on the device that is the real source of anxiety. Putting the thing in airplane mode and leaving it in a different room when you get home is going to do you way more good than staring into your phone and swiping away at more apps.

I turn off email and Slack when I get home. My stakeholders has to call me if something breaks.

I should note that when they do, my union has negotiated a wonderful overtime compensation where I receive a minimum of three hours pay, at 1.5 times the normal rate, if I have to solve an emergency even if it took me five minutes to fix it. If you're my employer, you better make sure that thing is critical to fix before you call in the cavalry.

After my employer did call me, and other team mates, to fix stuff we warned was not stable multiple times well, wouldn't you know it, suddenly people start listening to us when we want to spend more time fixing something instead of just shipping it quickly.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#96

Post by commandlinefan »

overkalix wrote: post #48
epicgiga wrote: post #14

A lot of companies are actively factoring this into their HR model. Their model is to hire fresh people and burn them out. Increasingly this is the direction western corporations are moving. Their ideal model is: place performance quotas above long term sustainability, people then burn themselves out, you then fire them for performance reasons, and you have them on an aggressive noncompete and threaten them with it w…

Not the first time I quote The Jungle in HN but... "During the summer the packing houses were in full activity again, and Jurgis made more money. He did not make so much, however, as he had the previous summer, for the packers took on more hands. There were new men every week, it seemed--it was a regular system; and this number they would keep over to the next slack season, so that every one would have less than ever…

> We have hundreds more books for your enjoyment. Read them all!

I think you cut and pasted more than you meant to...

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#97

Post by commandlinefan »

giggles_giggles wrote: post #94
commandlinefan wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Not OP but) I know it’s an unreasonable and probably inappropriate comparison, but I’m also old enough to have watched the demographics of professional computer programming shift from mostly white guys managing mostly other white guys to mostly white guys managing mostly brown people. I really don’t think it’s my imagination that at least some of the mostly white guys doing the managing have adopted more and more of…

This IS an unreasonable and inappropriate comparison. Anecdotally I've been overworked by a diverse group of shitty bosses of a variety of races, nationalities, and genders over the years. Nobody has a monopoly on shitty management. Singling out white men as uniquely shitty managers and then slapping on "plantation driver" is super racist!

Actually I meant I agreed that OP's comparison was (somewhat) unreasonable and inappropriate.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#98

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

barry-cotter wrote: post #17
epicgiga wrote: post #14

A lot of companies are actively factoring this into their HR model. Their model is to hire fresh people and burn them out. Increasingly this is the direction western corporations are moving. Their ideal model is: place performance quotas above long term sustainability, people then burn themselves out, you then fire them for performance reasons, and you have them on an aggressive noncompete and threaten them with it w…

Companies that expect people to work this hard are almost exclusively very well paying entry level jobs for fresh graduates with an up or out structure like I-Banking, management consisting or law. People know what they’re getting into when they start these jobs. The hours and workload are not a secret. Most people do their two years and get out. A lot of it amounts to pointless hazing but no one is deceived into thi…

> Companies that expect people to work this hard are almost exclusively very well paying entry level jobs for fresh graduates with an up or out structure

I'm friends with accountants for the big 4 firms - they are in no way, shape, or form, high paying initial positions.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#99

Post by sharms »

amelius wrote: post #38
dantodor wrote: post #30

I absolutely love how that app that's advertised in the writing is primarily targeted at the 25-40 range... Perhaps after 40 they think you don't work hard anymore... For the record, I started writing code for a living more than 30 years ago. I guess I should be safe, by the mind of these clever guys.

I have to say that my own experience is that people over 40 work less and at the same time seem to make more money.

This is highly inaccurate depending on where the upper bound of age is (ie excluding retirees or part timers). For instance, the average person above 40 years of age have much more time to focus on work: Children already grown, not frequently going out to bars or staying up late etc.

Re: Burnout: 'Sick and tired of feeling sick and tired'

#100

Post by el_cujo »

torgian wrote: post #8

This is a good article. I’ve experienced burn out before in my previous career, but never experienced very bad symptoms like the lady in this article did. Anecdotally, I believe burnout is more likely when you work on a job that only cares about profits, or is not fulfilling in some meaningful way. I personally couldn’t work at most of the software companies out there. Why would I want to work for some ad company, or…

>Anecdotally, I believe burnout is more likely when you work on a job that only cares about profits, or is not fulfilling in some meaningful way.

I worked in academic medical research for a while and many people seemed burn out. There was basically no profit motive since we were working for research grants and there was pretty strict controls on how that could be divvied up on payroll (can't just get a million dollar grant and give the boss a 300k pay raise). You'd think it would be fulfilling since we were studying disease/working towards treatments that could actually help people. Meanwhile I have friends in finance working in purely profit-driven roles that don't really help the world per se, and they don't seem burnt out at all. I really think a feeling of freedom has a bigger role than anything else. If you feel like it's not a big deal for you to take a vacation or a long lunch or just be away in general, then you'll feel less burnt out than someone who is expected to show up every day and give it their all with no end in sight, even if the goal they're working towards is something altruistic.

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