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Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

deprocrastination.co

361–370 of 378 posts

Re: Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

#361
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the most important empirical "truth" I've heard, now from several prominent people in the field¹. You are, in effect, prioritizing (self-)discipline over short-term performance, learning or productivity gains. I would surmise that your bodymind² has in effect realized, learned, that compound effect is the best strategy for long-term results; and/or that systems are better than goals. The invariant requ…

Then get ultimately crushed by the world because actually nobody but you cares about the results if the gain is small. Or you get a pat on the back, that's it. Ultimately you might also find that the end result was totally not worth the effort sunk. Or worse, there's no way to compare if you gained anything. There are only relatively few ways that do change life significantly and most of them do not take intense effo…

> “Then get ultimately crushed by the world because actually nobody but you cares about the results if the gain is small. Or you get a pat on the back, that's it.”

You mean that the world will only care if the gain is big, if I achieve "a lot"? If so, I question:

- Should I condition my happiness to something external that I can't control? (what the world thinks of me, of what I do/did)

- How can I ever be satisfied if I only compare myself to others? There's always someone better than me. Shouldn't I compare myself only to myself, past-me against present-me? Shouldn't I be making gifts to future-me by doing now what will make me happier / better / whatever?

- Why does "nobody care if the gain is small"? Can't a small subset of the world, e.g. people close to me that I know and who know me, care about me as I care about them? Isn't that enough, most days of our lives?

> “Ultimately you might also find that the end result was totally not worth the effort sunk.”

That would be the logical reaction of someone who only cared about the end result, and failed to reach their goal. But what if you care about the journey, the mission, the doing? What if "the effort sunk" was welcome, what if it was pleasure, growth, a good bone to grind for you? What if it made you happy?

Then you would find that the effort is well worth it every single day, because it is its own reward, because there is no further expectation beyond today's step, or because you learned to decorrelate your happiness from the satisfaction of expectations that lie beyond your control, your actions, your thoughts.

> “There are only relatively few ways that do change life significantly...”

Agreed.

> “... and most of them do not take intense effort or self discipline.”

Strongly disagree, with every fiber of memory and experience I can find. You would need to substantiate that, because it's an extraordinary claim... If one puts neither "intense effort" nor "self discipline", very little happens, and certainly not "significant life change". Quite the exact opposite is required for growth IME.

One key to all this is to stop thinking in terms of "goals" and instead design "systems" whose outcome gets you closer to where you want to go. In effect, building a vehicule and giving it a direction (or rather, recognizing that you are a vehicule, and take charge, assume full control). Whenever you put energy into this thing, it goes that way, your way, and you along with it (i.e. personality changes, evolves). Even your happiness, it's not a distant or abstract "goal", it's a very real, very practical system that you design to fit your life, values and aspirations. It produces your happiness whenever activated.

The ultimate goals are superb and never attained. The practical systems are tiny Legos but they work every time, and become huge in time.

And when you die, a "happy life" is often judged by a dumb sum of all moments, of all the little things, little bricks... That's the compound effect we get to see, but only retrospectively, unless we're told about it and we train ourselves to see the world in 4 dimensions, before it becomes too obvious/late.

Re: Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

#362
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most people really believe they physically cannot (say) run Do they? I would expect that when you "physically cannot run", it means you are collapsed in a pile on the ground unable to stand or move. People might say things like "I cannot run another step", but that is not the same as actually believing it. That said, unless you are very fit and very young, it might not be a good idea to get yourself to the point wh…

I have fallen over on the ground after 20 miles of running in both legs my quads and hamstrings were cramping. I got up and ran another 10 miles. Didn't have any choice, either run 5 miles back to the check-in table or 10 miles to finish the race.

Was there a tiger? :)

Re: Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

#363

I'd like to share this post[0]: The last two weeks I made it a goal to run 5km every morning. A few times, particularly today, I felt lazy and run down, but I got out of bed anyway and told myself that I'll at least walk. The next thing I know I'm running and feeling amazing and on to set one of my better times. The point: When you tell yourself "just one more game" or "just one more post", or "just one more video" a…

For me that doesn't work because then I learn that "yeah you say just walking but we both know it will end up in running." What works instead is I promise I will walk. And then I actually only walk even if I feel like running. That way you will trust yourself. If I say "ok i go to the gym 30 mins. just for a quick training." Then even if I'm in the flow at minute 30, I stop and go home. Next time I remember that and…

I have been experimenting with something similar, and in my experience how you think about "promising yourself" makes a lot of difference. If I thought that I'm going to row 2k instead of 5k, I am not telling myself that today I am going to row less, but that it's okay to just do 2k instead of 5k if I feel like it.

I did not make myself the promise of rowing less, but the promise of allowing myself of settling for less. That way, if I feel like doing extra 3k (or even an extra 0.5k) I can, but I don't feel forced. That seems to have worked very well for me, but I've also noticed that it works as long as I remain in the flow. After my vacation, for example, it took me a couple of weeks to bring me back to that mindset.

Re: Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I call these two people the "Planner" and the "Doer". Neither of them start out with bad intentions, but only one of them has to actually do things in the present moment, so resentment can definitely build up between the two.

Feels like higher mind vs primitive mind https://waitbutwhy.com/2019/08/fire-light.html Loong but great read

Tim Urban, the author of waitbutwhy, did a talk about that same topic (pretty much about the same article).

https://www.ted.com/talks/tim_urban_inside_the_mind_of_a_mas...

Re: Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

#365

>Start sloppy >Another trick to start sloppy - you might have high expectations of your finished work. >You want to write a great book, not just a good one. Or create a stellar artwork, or start a great business. >All those expectations can put more pressure on you than you can bear, leading you to avoid it by procrastinating. >Instead, you can escape those expectations by starting deliberately badly. I use this one…

As Ernest Hemingway never actually said, "write drunk, edit sober". Which I don't take to mean literally getting drunk before you start working on something, but do it as if you were drunk, i.e. with little to no inhibition.

Re: Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

#366

Procrastination is a tricky beast. I'm not going to discount advice like this, because it is helpful. But it is only one piece of the puzzle. There's a stark difference between "I don't quite feel like starting this yet, so I'll put it off for a little bit" and "I absolutely want nothing more than to start this but I can't force myself to", between laziness and a genuine inability to begin. Not to give medical advice…

I read your writeup on ADHD. I really appreciated the advice that you give (seeking help, finding ways to commit, etc), but you (as any other existing resource on ADHD) could not convince me that ADHD is a thing.

The symptoms you described, you explicitly say, are rather unique. If I think about most of the people I know, I would instead say that they are quite common. Either everyone around me, me included, has ADHD, or the definition for this disorder is quite fuzzy.

Just think about the astonishing number of people that buy books, watch videos, read threads - like this very one - that propose solutions to procrastination. All these people have similar symptoms, but I wouldn't say they are ill (even though they all have problems, and they all would greatly benefit from help, don't get me wrong). Nor I would be satisfied with the simplicistic way of classifying some of those as "sick and allowed to legally do amphetamines" and the rest in the negative set.

I read the official set of symptoms to diagnose ADHD that you linked in the article. I found that embarassing. Lacking in scientific soundness. Please pardon my bias as a data scientist, and allow me to distort a quote for an increased dramatic effect, but a thing like "if you have at least 6 symptoms among: moving too much, not wanting to do your homework since before you were 12, etc. - > then you have ADHD. But if you are more than 17, you only need 5 symptoms. Because you know, 5 is the magic number" doesn't strike me as a sound classification method.

I'll add that the sole fact that there are significant differences in the percentages of diagnosed ADHD cases among different continents should convince anybody that believes in science (=statistics/scientific method) that the model "if you check these boxes, then you have ADHD" is a horrible one to fit a very complex reality. Symptoms are like a mixture of mostly independent gaussians, and we are trying to force a binary classification on it, clumping variables together and imposing arbitrary thesholds. But we'll never get a decent representation of reality in this way. Having only a few classes, if having classes at all, is conceptually wrong in this case.

I think this simplified way of doing things can be ok for doctors that want an easy life (tick some boxes, get paid, feel you helped somebody) and for people that want a quick improve in performance and/or that want to feel relieved/justified by being labeled as ill (it may be adults wanting this for themselves, or anxious parents for their children. And both could be not fully aware about their drives. Therefore I'm not attacking anyone here. I'm highlighting a diffuse social problem and trying to raise awareness).

But this cannot be accepted by people that care about grasping all the nuances of complex phenomena, and that want to sensibly improve people's lives (by reducing the stigma around psychological problems, which we all have, by pushing for a culture with less simplification - especially in medicine and psychology - and that acknowledges observables as being continuous, by fighting for more equality around the world in the access to drugs and nootropics and for more education on drugs and mental hygene).

Pardon my English (it's not my first language) and pardon my tones (I may sound salty but I am really just looking for a high quality discussion in a beautiful place like HN, and I would love to be proven wrong on the ADHD existance). (((And pardon all my lispy parentheses.)))

TL;DR I rant about ADHD just being a label attached with poor criteria. It does not capture the complexity of reality, which is made of all shades of unsatisfaction, lazyness and interconnected psychological issues.

Re: Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

#367
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because then I learn that "yeah you say just walking but we both know it will end up in running." And this doesn't motivate you? For me it's actually more motivating: I only have to muster enough willpower to start walking, not to run, but I'll end up having a good workout anyway.

That’s only a motivation if you viscerally believe running to be an enjoyable activity. I have found that when starting something new, the most important (and hardest) thing is to stop while I’m still having a good time so that I associate that good feeling with the activity instead of the pain that comes from overdoing it.

I find exercise important, and almost always feel better after doing it, even if the specific activity isn't enjoyable.

Re: Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

#368

Procrastination is a tricky beast. I'm not going to discount advice like this, because it is helpful. But it is only one piece of the puzzle. There's a stark difference between "I don't quite feel like starting this yet, so I'll put it off for a little bit" and "I absolutely want nothing more than to start this but I can't force myself to", between laziness and a genuine inability to begin. Not to give medical advice…

I read your writeup on ADHD. I really appreciated the advice that you give (seeking help, finding ways to commit, etc), but you (as any other existing resource on ADHD) could not convince me that ADHD is a thing. The symptoms you described, you explicitly say, are rather unique. If I think about most of the people I know, I would instead say that they are quite common. Either everyone around me, me included, has ADHD…

I'm prepared to bet folding money that the folks who worked on the 5th Diagnostic & Statistical Manual (DSM-5) have given at least as much thought as you have to these matters.

The implication that research and practicing psychologists and psychiatrists, as a profession, are unaware of the profound variability of human beings is just silly.

Re: Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

#369

I'd like to share this post[0]: The last two weeks I made it a goal to run 5km every morning. A few times, particularly today, I felt lazy and run down, but I got out of bed anyway and told myself that I'll at least walk. The next thing I know I'm running and feeling amazing and on to set one of my better times. The point: When you tell yourself "just one more game" or "just one more post", or "just one more video" a…

For me that doesn't work because then I learn that "yeah you say just walking but we both know it will end up in running." What works instead is I promise I will walk. And then I actually only walk even if I feel like running. That way you will trust yourself. If I say "ok i go to the gym 30 mins. just for a quick training." Then even if I'm in the flow at minute 30, I stop and go home. Next time I remember that and…

You need to be more truthful with yourself, then! :P

My "I'll just do 10 reps" always comes with an implicit "but I can do more if I feel like it." Then if I'm feeling strong and have another rep or two left, I'm allowed to do them.

Re: Tricks to start working despite not feeling like it

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a company dedicated to tricking (voluntary and conscious) people from procrastination to actual sport, see https://www.squadeasy.com/ The main idea is to leverage the brain's sensitivity to cooperative team goals or competitive goals, plus some gamification. And it works! Disclaimer: the main founder is my brother, I was involved in the very first steps of the project, and I'm currently on a freelance missio…

Then tell your brother that they need to work on cheaters because my company uses Squadeasy and every year it's just a disgraceful experience. I know it's tough, especially when a giant like Strava that gamifies the hell out of sport barely does anything, but for the sake of giving an example, a cheater from my company basically took a tcx from someones marathon and uploaded every other day with shifted timestamps. I…

I love your passion for crushing cheaters.
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