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Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

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Re: Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

#51

This reminds me of a few ( I then found out that they were being taught to use Borland Turbo C . I suspect the case for this is similar: Some person who once upon a time learnt to program and then never practiced nor developed their skills somehow got a job teaching programming, and is now trying to apply the ancient tools they were taught somewhere around the time when some fish decided to walk on land because its a…

I see your point, but the rationale might be completely different. Most programmers nowadays focus on web programming. The main reasons for this are partly technical (easy deployment, easier upgrades, multi-platform) and partly political (subscription model, complete control of user data).

Now, a minority of us believe that desktop apps are really worth fighting for. They are fast, they give user control over their data, they can work offline, and the subscription model is optional rather than built in. Some in the mainstream would like this to be killed. Some companies like Apple approve it as long as they get their cut. But most simply don't care. If you don't want a future where everything you use is controlled by someone else, then the Turkish decision is not meaningless.

Re: Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

#52
post #17
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delphi is still very relevant when building desktop applications.

Not only that but Delphi has tremendous educational potential due to fast feedback loops. There was a blog post once on HN where one of Delphi authors discussed how they designed IDE and the language to be friendly for newcomers. One could ask why not invest in https://www.lazarus-ide.org/ instead of commercial Delphi though?

I try Lazarus every year; it is still instable. Did it improve over the past year?

Re: Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

#53
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> python is probably a more relevant choice. Python doesn't have any standard graphical IDE or even GUI widgets. No modern language can create GUI applications with the ease of use of Delphi, except maybe .NET (which is based on Delphi).

Building desktop GUI apps is pretty niche these days compared with building browser apps.

The key question is: should it be so? Or: wouldn't the world be a better place if we had some equilibrium between web and desktop apps?

Re: Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

#54

What's wrong with dBase, FoxPro and Clipper for that matter?

Clipper brings back memories, compiling took around 35 minutes, that was time to play some pool.

Really? The Nantucket one? I remember it, perhaps in error, as quite fast in compilation and I did write a couple of ERP systems in it back in the day.

Re: Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

#55

This reminds me of a few ( I then found out that they were being taught to use Borland Turbo C . I suspect the case for this is similar: Some person who once upon a time learnt to program and then never practiced nor developed their skills somehow got a job teaching programming, and is now trying to apply the ancient tools they were taught somewhere around the time when some fish decided to walk on land because its a…

I see your point, but the rationale might be completely different. Most programmers nowadays focus on web programming. The main reasons for this are partly technical (easy deployment, easier upgrades, multi-platform) and partly political (subscription model, complete control of user data). Now, a minority of us believe that desktop apps are really worth fighting for. They are fast, they give user control over their d…

You missed the point: Borland Turbo C was a proprietary compiler and IDE that had its last release in 1988 (replaced by Borland Turbo C++, which died sometime in the 90's). It has no relevance in this day and age.

If you teach C, at least teach C99 using a contemporary compiler—C11 was available when this all occurred. At no point did I suggest that a different language or paradigm should have been taught.

Re: Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building desktop GUI apps is pretty niche these days compared with building browser apps.

The key question is: should it be so? Or: wouldn't the world be a better place if we had some equilibrium between web and desktop apps?

No.

But I can see this thread is populated with Delphi diehards.

Re: Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

#57
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that but Delphi has tremendous educational potential due to fast feedback loops. There was a blog post once on HN where one of Delphi authors discussed how they designed IDE and the language to be friendly for newcomers. One could ask why not invest in https://www.lazarus-ide.org/ instead of commercial Delphi though?

I try Lazarus every year; it is still instable. Did it improve over the past year?

Nope, still unstable, you still need to chase and file small bugs, still no devexpress, either. But I have to admit they have done great work with the IDE during the past 5 years.

Re: Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

#58

I had to giggle recently when I heard "Delphi is dead". It's not. And I don't think it ever will, because, both as a language and work environment, it is quite powerful. It has pretty low entry barriers, and is pretty capable. When I used it (as a hobbiest, during Delphi 5 and Delphi 7 times), it had a superb tooling, and a really efficient compiler. Everything "just worked". It's now 15 - 20 years ago, when we creat…

That's not how I remember it. An empty statically linked VCL GUI application used to weigh about 700 KB. Just as stupid edgy kids usually do, we were looking at other "C++ applications" a dozen KBs in size and were ranting about Delphi being so bloated and terrible. Of course, it was due to them being built on top of pure Win32 API, or being dynamically linked to a similar "bloated" runtime.

It's not like we had an internet connection to learn from.

At least that's how I learned the difference between static and dynamic linking.

Re: Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

#59
I mean, one may assume incompetence and corruption. And perhaps that's the case. But on the other hand, teaching languages are not the same as production languages. There are a number of languages that may be more powerful, but I think Delphi is a decent choice for teaching.

* You want to teach principles. Delphi allows you to teach OOP principles. You may or may not agree that OOP should be the starting paradigm, but that is at least a popular and conventional opinion.

* You don't want complexity. I am sure there are many alternatives that do things better. Heck, I am sure some Haskell guy will tell us itt how he can build a graphical interface in half a line of code. But remember these are kids who may not even understand what a program even is!

* You want results. In particular, it should be easy to create things like a user interface via the IDE. The fun about learning programming is to create something cool. Kids today most often use UI's and not terminals, and I think there is real value to allowing them to create something they might actually use. If you struggle through understanding your first program, and all it does is to print out "Hello World" on a black interface, it is somewhat underwhelming. But if you can use the IDE to create your custom "hello world" box with pink borders and a unicorn picture - well that's cool!

* Of course you want students to be able to transfer their skills to other languages. But that's arguably not a big issue with Pascal.

* Finally, you want it all in one package. If you have to learn a vast module infrastructure, it just complicates things. Here is your "language", you can do everything in it. I remember when we were learning, we started to try to build games and stuff. We used the tools available to use, because it was all very complex and we understood little. It was useful to have such a limited toolbox in the view of complexity. I think if we were forced to think about modules and many, many options to do a thing, we'd probably give up. Of course it is educational to try to come up with a solution with a limited set of tools!

From this perspective, Delphi is not a bad choice. Indeed I think the only other similar choice would be C#, which would probably cost more.

Re: Turkey buys Delphi licenses for an estimated one million students

#60
post #12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delphi is still very relevant when building desktop applications.

Is it? Can it compete with c# or swift for desktop applications?

It depends on your use cases, are you just going to pop up a message box? Are you going to develop an ERP? c# and delphi both have devexpress, so apart from delphi's execution speed being faster (in my experience) they aren't really that different. Delphi does require you to manually cleanup memory at finally blocks, unlike c# which does garbage collection. Delphi has a design-time mode which is unique among the languages and is able to show live data from a database while developing master-detail forms and grids.
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