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Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

blog.dijit.sh

231–240 of 335 posts

Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

#231
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you can't really talk about downsides of Recaptcha/Cloudflare without also acknowledging the extreme amount of malicious actors and abuse on the internet. We're in a "this is why we can't have nice things" predicament and you have malicious actors to thank for that, yet most people on HN only seem capable of attacking the few affordable solutions to that problem. I'm even down with the theory that Cloudflare is…

> malicious actors and abuse It's hard to consider simply viewing content to be malicious or abusive, no matter how automated.

I used to work for a data-scraping firm and very often we would accidentally knock many web sites offline when we pointed our crawlers at them.

I'd love to agree with you, but the crawler problem is 100x worse today than it was a decade ago

Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's hear some real solutions. It's by no means a full solution (there likely is no single full solution), and it may even be a bad solution -- but lately I've been trying to think about what the Internet would look like if we didn't have a massive arbitrage potential around server requests. Part of the reason why everyone is trying to detect bots is because bots will very, very rapidly eat up your bandwidth and C…

> automatically increase the prices of requests by a fraction of a cent to compensate Great concept. CPU, bandwidth, electricity, it's all just energy. And to a significant degree, money is just energy stored. I generate energy with my own work, store it in the form of money, and then transfer that energy to someone else, maybe to heat my home or cook me a meal. Before money, I had to barter for those things. Maybe c…

Isn't the reason we are freed from barter in daily life is because the government is intimately involved in the financial/banking system, and regulates it and issues money and so on? Maybe we continue to struggle with the internet because it started out unregulated and has never really transcended that because people insist on thinking freedom is best for commerce without appreciating the nuances.

Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

#233
post #82

I really wish you could just directly pay for services. A hundredth of a cent per visit would make most abuse un-profitable while still allowing very affordable procrastination.

People always say "why, why not micropayments"? Micropayments require even smaller transaction fees. Really small transaction fees require centralized regulation and economies of scale, i.e. government control and monopoly. You can't have your freedom and your frictionless markets both. The more anarchy, the more expensive buying and selling is, and the more business models and options for wealth creation simply can't work.

Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

#234
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's hear some real solutions. It's by no means a full solution (there likely is no single full solution), and it may even be a bad solution -- but lately I've been trying to think about what the Internet would look like if we didn't have a massive arbitrage potential around server requests. Part of the reason why everyone is trying to detect bots is because bots will very, very rapidly eat up your bandwidth and C…

That's how ads work. More visitors more pageviews/clicks. People who serve ads don't want to pay for bots which is why they are a problem. Doesn't medium do this?

> That's how ads work. More visitors more pageviews/clicks.

That's not asking people to pay for bandwidth/compute power, it's selling something adjacent to your content that you hope makes up for the loss.

> People who serve ads don't want to pay for bots which is why they are a problem.

That's kind of my point. When you ignore the arbitrage potential of serving requests for free, it forces you to care about making sure that your content is only available to the "right" users. You have to care about things like scraping/bots, because you're not directly covering your server costs, you're swallowing your server costs and just hoping that ads make up the difference.

Theoretically, in a world where server costs were directly transferred to the people accumulating those costs, you wouldn't need to care about bots. In fact, in that world, you shouldn't care whether or not I'm using an automated browser, since digital resources aren't limited by physical constraints.

In most cases, the only practical limit to how many people can visit a website is the hardware/cost associated with running it. A website isn't like an iPhone where we can run out of physical units to sell. So if they're paying for the resources they use, who cares if bots make a substantial portion of your traffic?

> Doesn't medium do this?

No, Medium just sells subscriptions, you don't pay for server usage. As far as I know, no one does this -- probably in part because of problems I haven't thought of, also probably in part because there are no good micro-payment systems online (and arguably no really good payment systems at all).

The closest real-world example is probably AWS, where customers pay directly for the resources they use. But those costs aren't then directly passed onto the user.

Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

#235
post #83

It appears that you may have made some modifications to your user agent string. If you revert your user agent to the one provided by default by your browser vendor everything will be fine.

Why is it that something as malleable as a user-agent string trips these kinds of sensors? If I were to write a bot, copying current browsers' user-agents is literally the first thing I'd do

Pure conjecture: The "security solution" probably wanted to ban the user for a reason unrelated to the UA string, and was only able to (i.e., the user was only identifiable uniquely enough) because of the odd UA string. Switching to the standard UA string places the user into a state sufficiently non-unique as to be unidentifiable and thus unblockable.

Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

#236
post #83

It appears that you may have made some modifications to your user agent string. If you revert your user agent to the one provided by default by your browser vendor everything will be fine.

Possible reason why it UA matters: https://blog.cloudflare.com/monsters-in-the-middleboxes/

Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

#237
post #83

It appears that you may have made some modifications to your user agent string. If you revert your user agent to the one provided by default by your browser vendor everything will be fine.

Why is it that something as malleable as a user-agent string trips these kinds of sensors? If I were to write a bot, copying current browsers' user-agents is literally the first thing I'd do

You'd be surprised. The /good/ bots do this, but there's a lot of white noise garbage that simple techniques do still filter out.

Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you can't really talk about downsides of Recaptcha/Cloudflare without also acknowledging the extreme amount of malicious actors and abuse on the internet. We're in a "this is why we can't have nice things" predicament and you have malicious actors to thank for that, yet most people on HN only seem capable of attacking the few affordable solutions to that problem. I'm even down with the theory that Cloudflare is…

> It's easy to shit on everything. Let's hear some real solutions. My solution more and more is to just not bother with it. If a site is unreadable because I'm using uBlock and uMatrix, and I have to spend more than a minute or two tweaking things, then I just leave. That said, I don't have any problem with Cloudflare. I'm much more annoyed by the overuse of *.googleapis.com. I'd love if somebody would setup a servic…

uMatrix is great for blocking 3rd party stuff globally in your browser. Outside of the browser, I rely on DNS blocking rather than modifying hosts files.

Wrote a little post about how I configured my blacklists and whitelists with AdGuard Pro for iOS.

https://www.calebyers.com/blog/dns-ad-blocking.html

Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloudflare only got its revenge on Daily Stormer because it had the power to do so, and abused that power instead of using the legal system like everyone else has to. I used to be a schoolteacher, and no matter what bad or false thing a student said about me, I wouldn't fail them as retribution or to prove them wrong or anything. That would be abuse of power. Might is right?

These are not analogous. You have a moral (and possibly a legal) obligation to grade a student fairly. Unless you are a school administrator, you can not unilaterally expel a student. A business has no such constraints. If I go to a bar and start telling people that the owner is actually a racist, I’m going to get kicked out even if I want to buy more drinks. That’s not “might is right”; it’s the owner not wanting to…

I'm talking about morals, not the law. The issue is that there was an imbalance of power which means one party can push the other one around but not the reverse.

If The Daily Stormer had made that claim about some unrelated business, it wouldn't suffer any such consequences because that other business wouldn't have any power over it. If only powerful players can punish weak players and people call that "fair", then that's kind of the definition of "might is right".

The bar analogy isn't quite the same because there are many other bars so the kicked out customer doesn't suffer much loss. If it's the only bar in town and people really need that service, then it would be morally wrong for the owner to use his power to settle personal disputes. Everybody would be living in fear of being banned and would conform their behavior to his demands. That's why monopolies are often regulated to prevent such abuses of power.

Re: Cloudflare is turning off the internet for me

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you can't really talk about downsides of Recaptcha/Cloudflare without also acknowledging the extreme amount of malicious actors and abuse on the internet. We're in a "this is why we can't have nice things" predicament and you have malicious actors to thank for that, yet most people on HN only seem capable of attacking the few affordable solutions to that problem. I'm even down with the theory that Cloudflare is…

> It's easy to shit on everything. Let's hear some real solutions. My solution more and more is to just not bother with it. If a site is unreadable because I'm using uBlock and uMatrix, and I have to spend more than a minute or two tweaking things, then I just leave. That said, I don't have any problem with Cloudflare. I'm much more annoyed by the overuse of *.googleapis.com. I'd love if somebody would setup a servic…

I've been thinking about a local proxy that caches CDN assets. The first request to a cdn URL goes through, subsequent requests come from cache.

I think it would work fine with versioned libraries, fonts, etc. I'm thinking of setting up a container and squid config to achieve this.

Any obvious problems or alternative solutions?

Obviously enumerating the worlds CDN URLs would be a task. But I think even covering the most common CDNs would be a benefit.

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