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Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

reuters.com

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Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#421

Post by scarface74 »

dpau wrote: post #72
panarky wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's mostly marketing bullshit. Apple and Microsoft both tried to build ad businesses, but when they weren't as successful as Google, they turned lemons into lemonade by launching data privacy PR campaigns against Google. Meanwhile, Apple and Microsoft quietly censor their products in China, surrender data to Chinese authorities, and now we find Apple is intentionally leaving iCloud data insecure. Presumably Google w…

Just a reminder, Apple ceded control of its iCloud management in China to a state-controlled company, in addition began storing its encryption keys in China in order to "comply with local regulations". So whether or not your backups are encrypted is almost a moot point, given that the government can submit a lawful demand for your data at any time.. Apple will store some iCloud encryption keys in China, raising secur…

From the linked Rueters article...

Apple says the joint venture does not mean that China has any kind of “backdoor” into user data and that Apple alone – not its Chinese partner – will control the encryption keys.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#422

Post by scarface74 »

cies wrote: post #142
aiisjustanif wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

Dont know why down voted. Even if someone doesnt care for individuals in other legal zones (sad), the extra injustice Apple is accepting in other legal zones is a clear display of what they are willing to do to you eventually. > Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. So I 100% agree.

Well, it's based on incorrect information, based on the parent's citation....

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#423

Post by brigade »

DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #349
brigade wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also flakey as hell (just looked and my latest backup is over 3 weeks old), and relies on having a computer plugged into power at the same time as your iPhone, with enough free space. I've tried getting my family to use it (mainly because they didn't want to pay for iCloud storage), before giving up and just paying their storage for them.

> and relies on having a computer plugged into power at the same time as your iPhone, with enough free space. I mean... yes? How else would they do it? Data transfer is power-intensive, and encryption is also power-intensive. Imagine having only 10% battery on your laptop while you're working at a coffee shop or something and suddenly it drops to 5% because it's started a backup. Sure, the majority of the time it'd p…

It was the primary reason I gave up trying to make it work for my family - none of them regularly leave their laptop plugged in overnight, so there was rarely a time when both laptop and phone were charging at the same time.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#424

Post by scarface74 »

Silhouette wrote: post #121
metafunctor wrote: post #6

What the... I was under the impression that iCloud backups are end-to-end encrypted. This is a HUGE problem.

This is a HUGE problem. Well, you can choose not to use iCloud for that reason (as some of us do). A bigger problem is that Apple deliberately locks up iDevices so it's hard to get your data off them using only local means, particularly if you don't also want to buy an Apple laptop just to do it.

If only iTunes existed for Windows....

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#425

Post by anoncake »

Cyberdog wrote: post #320
anoncake wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can trust an organization to do some mix of pursuing its goals and filling someone's pockets. So while you can trust some non-profits, you can never trust a for-profit about anything you care about as a customer.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion, you can't trust eating food someone grew for profit, riding in a car someone built for profit, wearing clothes someone made for profit… Under capitalism, encouraging repeat business from a customer is a successful long-term strategy, and maintaining customer satisfaction by not selling them food that will make them sick, cars that have faulty brakes, clothes that deteri…

> Taking this argument to its logical conclusion, you can't trust eating food someone grew for profit, riding in a car someone built for profit, wearing clothes someone made for profit…

Indeed, that's why customer protection laws exist.

> So if I purchase a product from a company that's been around for a while, I can have a reasonable expectation - a trust - that that product will be of some quality.

That's pretty naive. Companies that used to produce quality products often switch to producing garbage once they have established a brand people trust.

For-profit companies kinda work when they are being watched and it's easy to judge the quality of their products – i.e. when you don't need to trust them.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#426

Post by president »

scarface74 wrote: post #417
president wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding #1: iCloud in China is operated by a mainland Chinese company and subject to that company's terms and conditions. So you can pretty much assume iCloud data is completely accessible by the government. Source: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351

Apple uses third party data centers, if it can't host encrypted data on a Chinese server without China having access to the data, there is something wrong with the encryption.

I would urge you to read up on the Chinese cryptography law [1] which took effect on the 1st of this year. Essentially all companies foreign or not must provide unencrypted access to data to the Chinese government and must do so in secrecy. Prior to this, companies were being compelled to give up their data anyways but this just makes things easier.

By the way, the source below is an official Chinese government media source.

[1] http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-10/26/c_138505655.htm

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#427

Post by glogla »

_bxg1 wrote: post #353
StillBored wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They botched subsequent pushes on it because the bootstrapping problem around apps had grown too deep. I don't really think that is necessarily accurate. Lots of smaller developers would be more than happy to have a green field for app development if another player were willing to put the effort into assuring the device isn't a POS, and is priced reasonably. Some of the larger apps (netflix for example) already have…

Microsoft literally paid developers to port their apps to Windows Phone: https://www.theverge.com/2013/6/15/4433082/microsoft-paying-... It's that chicken-and-egg problem where people don't want to use it because it doesn't have the apps they need, and developers don't want to make apps for it because it doesn't have enough users. Microsoft tried to throw money at the problem to middling success. But I think it was t…

It was not just any anonymous developers, it was Google specifically making Gmail and Youtube not working on the Windows Phone. They refused to port their apps, and when Microsoft created clones (i.e. Microsoft built Youtube apps) Google made them not work on the back-end and threatened to sue MS.

It was just monopoly abusing its walled garden and being anticompetitive, nothing else. Not that Microsoft would behave any differently, if the positions were switched.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#428

Post by reroute1 »

Finnucane wrote: post #405
panarky wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No company cares about anything It's a common misconception that corporations are amoral incentive-driven machines impervious to ethics, morals or mission. Corporations are run by leaders. Many leaders choose to pursue unethical and immoral activities to maximize profit. They justify their actions by saying "it's just business", or "we have a fiduciary duty to the stockholders to maximize earnings per share by what…

>t's a common misconception that corporations are amoral incentive-driven machines impervious to ethics, morals or mission. Not really, those leaders are pretty quick to hide behind the corporate veil when it's convenient for dodging questions of moral (or even legal) responsibility. The whole point of corporate legal structure is to create an entity that is _separate_ from the humans that occupy offices. That entity…

OK, but isn't this largely semantics? Saying Apple doesn't care about customers may technically be true, but that is taking it quite literally. The statement can also be meant to imply the people in Apple care, of course no one would speculate that a non human corporate entity would care.

I also largely agree that the Apple meme of privacy being trotted out lately doesn't quite jive with this news, but at the same time surely there are people who care about it at Apple, and maybe as a whole they even prioritize it more than others.

But I also don't know how much I really disagree with the FBI's position. In general I have seen this kind of access to be used in the right situations (IE collecting communications of criminals). I understand this can be a slippery slope, but should we trade that for leaving clear evidence against criminals unturned in the name of "privacy"?

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#429

Post by brlewis »

natch wrote: post #230
justapassenger wrote: post #191

Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, about how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. While iPhone itself is pretty secure as a device phone (and Apple makes sure to remind you about that in each ad, public speaking, attacks on competitors, etc), as an ecosystem it's not secure. And it's like that on purpose - there's no…

As someone who has bought into that meme I will admit this feels like a pretty huge betrayal by Apple. So, yes, I think if Apple sticks with this, their whole privacy stance is going in the toilet now. And a very dirty toilet it is. Beyond just the facts of not protecting data, there is also the deception. This is some really very, very, nasty stuff for Apple's brand and the reputation of every person who works at Ap…

I have not bought into the meme and am not a huge Apple fan, but I think you can continue to if you wish. "Reuters could not determine why exactly Apple dropped the plan." It's possible that Apple didn't want the support costs of dealing with customers who lost/forgot whatever secret was to be used for encryption, and thus would have been unable to use their backups.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#430

Post by president »

scarface74 wrote: post #421
dpau wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a reminder, Apple ceded control of its iCloud management in China to a state-controlled company, in addition began storing its encryption keys in China in order to "comply with local regulations". So whether or not your backups are encrypted is almost a moot point, given that the government can submit a lawful demand for your data at any time.. Apple will store some iCloud encryption keys in China, raising secur…

From the linked Rueters article... Apple says the joint venture does not mean that China has any kind of “backdoor” into user data and that Apple alone – not its Chinese partner – will control the encryption keys.

Incorrect. Please see the official Apple Support page [1] that debunks this. It specifically states:

"iCloud services and all the data you store with iCloud, including photos, videos, documents, and backups, will be subject to the new terms and conditions of iCloud operated by GCBD."

And since all Chinese companies are bound by local laws, you can be assured that your data is readily available for access by the government.

[1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351

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