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Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

cnn.com

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Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#91
post #73

One question in my mind is: what would it take for the old "engineer" faction of Boeing to come to the top again? Or is this unrealistic as the "management/costcutting" faction is just inherently better a "management" politics to ever be dislodged? Failing this, what is the likelihood a competitor with old-school Boeing values might emerge to compete, in such a capital-heavy industry?

It's basically impossible for a competitor with "old school" values to emerge. The regulatory hurdles and foreign competition are daunting. There are only two companies in the world that can do what Airbus and Boeing do.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#92

ELI5: why can’t the auto safety system be removed and the plane be sound? Is the design so flawed that it can’t be safely flown by a human without this system that causes random catastrophic failures?

If there is another crash due to a manufacturing defect, expect airlines to abandon the 737 Max variants. Boeing has very little margin for error.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#93
post #16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have many friends who fly a lot more than me, and I've never heard any of them mention the type of airplane as an issue. Most of them don't know the exact model or even brand of "that plane that was grounded".. I guess people in general rely on the government agencies to do this decision for us..

I don’t think I’ve ever made a flight decision based on the safety of a particular airline type. I prefer certain types for long hauls as well as caring about seat configuration and schedule/price. But I figure getting back and forth to the airport is more dangerous.

> I don’t think I’ve ever made a flight decision based on the safety of a particular airline type.

Neither had I, until I took a Tupolev jet between Moscow and India. I then decided I would never fly another aircraft that wasn't certified to fly in American and European airspaces. The reason for this was that I had trust in the FAA's and European aviation authory's standards and integrity. That trust has been greatly eroded (particularly with the FAA) for me.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#94

According to the article Boeing has halted production, but this leaves the door open to producing them again in the future after design updates. I predict they'll try to rename the model and fly it again after making changes and certifying. That being said, I never want to fly on a 737 Max or whatever they plan to rebrand it as.

50/50 prediction. Existing 737 Max aircraft will never fly passenger service again.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#95

ELI5: why can’t the auto safety system be removed and the plane be sound? Is the design so flawed that it can’t be safely flown by a human without this system that causes random catastrophic failures?

Briefly: It could be, but that would mean reclassifying the airplane.

Maybe think about it like anti-lock brakes. Cars without ABS can be driven safely in many/most circumstances, but most drivers are accustomed to ABS. (This is necessarily a limited analogy)

Also, there are government requirements per aircraft type, and removing this system would change the aircraft type, triggering a significant amount of required re-training.

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Not directly related to your question, but I think [pure speculation/psychological theory] one thing that went badly wrong here was engineers thinking about this as a convenience system. Because it was thought of as a convenience system, they didn't fully consider the safety aspect of it.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's incredible to me is how this could be allowed to happen. Are the higher echelons of these industries staffed by charlatans? Has something changed in the engineering culture? Did greed override diligence and if so, how was this allowed to happen when the consequences can be so catastrophic both to passengers and to the company? It just doesn't make sense to me how, with such high stakes, a company could manage…

At some point, engineering gets displaced by short-term business concerns, driven by managers who have incentives to cut costs and deliver faster even if it destroys the company in the long term. Make a management chain long enough, and most of the decisions will get made this way. Each layer in the hierarchy serves both to insulate decision-makers from the impacts of their decisions and to amplify perverse incentive…

>Systems are usually to blame more than people are.

IDK, honestly. Systems are created by people who think or ought to think about the incentives they are setting. But in the end, the lower echelons are still "just following orders" by employing child labourers or pushing out a plane with a crippled design.

I don't know about US companies, but I think most big enterprises have an internal whistleblower system, that can and should be used if unethical decisions are pushed down.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#97
post #36

EDIT: And an hour after writing this Boeing just now announcing (surprise, surprise) they don’t expect return-to-service until July and stock is currently trading down 5.5%) I shorted BA for a few months based on many HN posts after the crashes, but covered my position after it seemed to stabilize at ~320. I think it will probably head lower, but as a general rule I try to find companies I believe in rather than comp…

They have 1300 total employees and only 24 review all of Boeing's planes? That's insane! What the fuck are the others doing? Can't be all HR (no offense to HR)

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#98
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you're talking about, Comcast has had amazing support the last few months in my area. We even had a rep come to our house, and leave a handwritten note on the door when we didn't answer, asking if we had any questions or concerns and to give them a call if there was anything they could do for us. ... I'm sure this has nothing to do with the city fiber to the home buildout that is going on in our nei…

My Comcast connection is rock solid. Except when it rains. And I live in Oregon.

FYI: I had that problem a decade ago, and the problem ended up being a nick in the coax sheathing on the run from the house to the neighborhood box. Water would get in and ruin the signal, but it was fine when it was dry.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#99

ELI5: why can’t the auto safety system be removed and the plane be sound? Is the design so flawed that it can’t be safely flown by a human without this system that causes random catastrophic failures?

TL;DR The 737 design is super, super old and they wanted to install new engines on it that are more efficient and powerful. These engines are much bigger than the engines that were initially installed, meaning they had to be installed further up the wing in order to ensure adequate ground clearance. Unfortunately that changes the flight model of the airplane and makes it prone to pitching up, especially during take off. Pitching up too far can cause a stall and result in a crash. MCAS was designed to detect this pitch up and counter it with a pitch down.

It's entirely possible, even likely I would say, that the majority of pilots would intervene before a stall is ever reached in a scenario where MCAS would kick in. I think you could fly this plane for hundreds of thousands of hours without incident without MCAS. Unfortunately, there have been cases (AF447) where the pilots were so confused/tired/inexperienced that they ignored the stall horn and let the plane stall and crash. MCAS was meant to address situations like those but tragically it only made things worse.

The other thing is that Boeing didn't want to have to re-certify this aircraft with the FAA, as that would also require airlines to train their pilots for this new aircraft type. Note that the whole purpose of the MAX was to compete with the A320neo, and re-certification would have taken a long time and cost a whole lot of money. This would negate the purpose of the MAX in the first place. MCAS allowed Boeing to "pretend" the 737 MAX was the same exact airplane as the 737NG (which the MAX was based off, I believe), and thus pilots didn't need additional training outside of a 30 minute iPad session.

Re: Boeing has temporarily stopped making 737 Max airplanes

#100
post #90
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MAX is Defective by Design. Leave the aerodynamically unstable designs for the hotshot fighter planes; everyone else just wants to get from A to B without cratering into the ground inbetween.

Is it unstable? I thought the problem was that they didn't want to require retraining so they built in a flight control system that made it seem like the previous generation plane from a flight dynamics pov. That system would only take inputs from a single sensor on any given flight. If that sensor had issues then the flight control system would misbehave. If they had gone the retraining route and not included MCAS,…

I think most aircraft are unstable or have quirks outside their approved flight envelope. For passenger aircraft you want it to be docile and predictable inside that. The MAX far as I've gleaned naturally wants to pitch up at high angles of attack. And that the problem is more severe than they expected when they initially designed the thing.

The MCAS might have been okay if the behavior matched initial expectations.

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