Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#211

Post by 6ak74rfy » Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

rsync wrote: post #56

metafunctor wrote: post #6

What the... I was under the impression that iCloud backups are end-to-end encrypted. This is a HUGE problem.

You should look into the 'borg' backup tool - it has become the de facto standard for remote backups because it does everything that rsync does (efficient, changes only backups) but also produces strongly encrypted remote backup sets that only you have a key to ... your cloud provider has no access to the data. The borg website is here: https://borgbackup.readthedocs.io/en/stable/ and a good description of how it wor…

After looking at a few alternatives (Borg, Duplicacy etc.), I setup Arq on my Mac yesterday.

One thing that irks me about these solutions is that they seem to scan my folders each time they want to backup. Are there tools that are smarter about this? For e.g., while running, they could keep a log of what's changing and only scan those while backing up.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#212

Post by tomaskafka » Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

Two things:

1) There is no way Apple would be allowed to sell iPhones in China, without China government having access to anything. So, I assume that Apple users in China have e2e encrypted exactly nothing.

2) I have a strong suspicion that those 'enter your Apple ID password because your account needs it' message really means 'a government has requested your data and even though it's encrypted, we will nag you about entering a password, and if you give it, you're a free game'.

I don't blame Apple for this, I'm sure they're doing what they can, but when a government says 'give us this data', they can't not comply and stay in business. And a whole point of a company is staying in the business.

Vote responsibly - companies can't protect us from a government we have put into power.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#213

Post by awinter-py » Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

I don't think we understand yet how to model the impacts of breaches on products.

Cambridge Analytica didn't ruin facebook, but it did enable CCPA, and it probably changed how FB users think of / trust the product. Ashley Madison / equifax breaches completely ruined their cos.

Snowden disclosures were a weird middle case that meant all things to all people.

Weakening aapl's privacy claims may not matter to a post-truth public but I suspect it will further drive demand for actual consumer privacy products, when and if they enter the market.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#214

Post by pertymcpert » Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #192

_bxg1 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to get by with Lineage without gapps for a year and a half (if you don't forego gapps then there's no point from a privacy perspective). I couldn't get push notifications on Slack because they went through gapps. I couldn't use several online dating services because they were only on mobile, and their mobile apps broke without gapps. I couldn't check my bank account from my phone because I couldn't get a hold…

> We can talk all day about how we got to this status quo and what can or can't be done about it, but the reality is that if you want to live a real, modern, urban life in 2020, so many people and organizations just assume you to have a fully-functional smartphone that you will be actively hampered without one. And for that, you can also get a stock Android phone like 80% of the world and still not be an Apple consum…

Wait, your answer is Android? From Google?

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#215

Post by CiPHPerCoder » Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #197

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can talk all day about how we got to this status quo and what can or can't be done about it, but the reality is that if you want to live a real, modern, urban life in 2020, so many people and organizations just assume you to have a fully-functional smartphone that you will be actively hampered without one. And for that, you can also get a stock Android phone like 80% of the world and still not be an Apple consum…

And be saddled with Google's services, which are 10x worse with regards to privacy than even this new revelation about Apple? I don't really understand your reasoning.

My reasoning in this entire thread has been:

1. This isn't news about Apple's encryption, it's just that the status quo is here to stay. Your Apple device is as secure/private as it has been, and will probably not get any better. It's disappointing, but not really much of a revelation to anyone who's been paying attention since 2012 (or earlier).

2. The way the headline is phrased vindicates an orthogonal personal decision I made to not purchase hardware or software from Apple.

Given your most recent comment, at some point, you must have assumed a lot of things that a) aren't true and b) I never stated or implied.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#216

Post by CiPHPerCoder » Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

pertymcpert wrote: post #214

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can talk all day about how we got to this status quo and what can or can't be done about it, but the reality is that if you want to live a real, modern, urban life in 2020, so many people and organizations just assume you to have a fully-functional smartphone that you will be actively hampered without one. And for that, you can also get a stock Android phone like 80% of the world and still not be an Apple consum…

Wait, your answer is Android ? From Google?

We live with a hellish duopoly. If I'm not buying Apple, what other option is there?

Attempting to pantomime surprise is dickish and unncessary for HN.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#217

Post by wnevets » Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

justapassenger wrote: post #191

Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, about how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. While iPhone itself is pretty secure as a device phone (and Apple makes sure to remind you about that in each ad, public speaking, attacks on competitors, etc), as an ecosystem it's not secure. And it's like that on purpose - there's no…

>Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have,

Probably not. The keyboards on their laptops are barely functional but it doesn't stop people from saying how great they are.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#218

Post by zaroth » Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

zzzcpan wrote: post #190

zaroth wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a backdoor, nor does it circumvent anything. It is a front door convenience feature which has distinct privacy/security trade-offs. There exists no magical way to provide a means of lost password/device recovery which doesn’t grant Apple access to decrypt your data. It turns out that a lot of users want to have a way to recover from a lost device/password and are willing to let Apple decrypt their data. You…

> There exists no magical way to provide a means of lost password/device recovery which doesn’t grant Apple access to decrypt your data. In modern times your face and your fingerprints could be that magic.

I’m not sure about that. Face and fingers are typically authentication mechanisms. They can grant access to a key, but they cannot themselves be the key.

The thing doing the authentication can be your local device, or a cloud-device. That thing must necessarily store a validator for your face/fingerprints which it can use to decide your submitted capture is “close enough” to consider a match, after which it grants access to the key, usually indirectly, by allowing certain cryptographic operations with the key.

Apple takes pains to ensure the biometric validators never leave the Secure Enclave of a local device. Possibly they could allow syncing these validators between Secure Enclaves of paired devices but I think you have to re-enroll. Absolutely never do they transmit these biometric validators to the Cloud in a readable form.

So in a lost-device scenario, you are also losing the biometric validators as well as the keys which were unlocked by the validators.

I think storing decryptable biometric validators is worse than storing decryptable device backups. Such a fingerprint database would almost certainly be abused by a government (forced to match a terrorist’s fingerprint against their users).

The singular reason I am willing to use biometric authentication on my phone is because the authentication is done locally.

For example Amazon’s recently announced project to link Amazon Pay to a palm print in stores is a total non-starter for me. Besides the fact that it’s a clumsy and bad idea to begin with, no way I want them having my palm print validator sitting in the Cloud.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#219

Post by sparker72678 » Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #187

sparker72678 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think the general public would understand end-to-end encrypted backups. I imagine you're right; it would still be nice for individuals and organizations to have the _option_ though.

You do have the option. Local device backup with a password. You can’t even turn off the backup password on an existing device for a new backup without knowing the old password (protecting against Evil Maid problem). I’ve had to reset a device when I forgot my local iPhone backup password to get it back to unencrypted backups.

You're right, of course.

I had in mind an e2e encrypted backup on Apple's servers, which would be far more convenient than doing it locally. That's all.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#220

Post by tomaskafka » Tue, Jan 21, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #85

nexuist wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Headlines like this vindicate my decision to never purchase an Apple product. What else can you buy? Surely not Android...do you live without a smartphone (serious question, not judging)?

"Surely not Android...do you live without a smartphone (serious question, not judging)?" That's a very judgmental way to ask that question if you're trying to not be judging. My phone hardware would fall under the Android classification, but I run LineageOS. I wish I had more options, but we're stuck in a hellish duopoly for the time being.

> but I run LineageOS

With Google Play Services surveillance rootkit? :)