How to Fix the Flawed Startup Visa Act • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Fix the Flawed Startup Visa Act

#11

Post by ajju » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 6:53 PM UTC

trevelyan wrote: post #9

pg wrote: post #2

The mistake happens in these two sentences: "The bill makes the wrong assumption that all startups raise angel or venture capital. As my team’s research has shown, nine out of 10 successful entrepreneurs don’t." Entrepreneurs are not identical with startup founders. An entrepreneur is someone who starts a new business. Only a small fraction of new businesses are startups; most are unscalable service businesses like b…

I think you're mistaken, Paul. Most incubators including YCombinator softly exclude single-founder businesses and yet these probably constitute at least 50% of the pool of start-ups. Add to them all businesses which get profitable enough to avoid taking outside investment and those which never get funding at all and I'd be surprised if 2/10 startup founders raise outside money, even in California. Just assuming peopl…

You are right, in that this act would exclude folks who want to quit their H1B jobs here and start a startup and are not yet at a stage where they can be funded, or do not want to raise funding.

However, if the startup visa act were to remove any filtering requirements for startups, the effect would be a huge spate of tens of thousands of folks who want to open shops, ebay stores or gardening businesses applying along with the single founders of scalable startups - and no one would get a visa in time. The only other 'right' way of fixing this is having the USCIS adjudicate the scalability of business for everyone that applies. That process is hard to scale.

Edit: Actually, I forgot - there may be another way. Some other countries have made the process objective instead which makes it scalable, but introduces other filters. For example, Canada uses a points based system where you get points for education, work experience in your field, fluency with languages etc. If you get past a threshold, you get a (relatively) quick interview and permit on the spot.

Note that a points based system may exclude a young, college dropout founder with no experience. In other words - a plurality of YC founders. May be you could make it either/or - raise investment, or get enough points based on your profile.

Re: How to Fix the Flawed Startup Visa Act

#12

Post by davemc500hats » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:50 PM UTC

much of vivek's criticism focuses on how to optimize the Startup Visa bill. however, left unspoken is how to construct a bill such that opponents will allow it to pass. we spent over a year consulting a variety of folks on this issue (including vivek, who at the time offered much less feedback and a lot more support than recently when he appears to have had a change of heart).

while his feedback may be relevant, unfortunately it's not very helpful AFTER we have spent so much time getting bipartisan support for the current bill. in fact his rather late critiques may actually reduce the chance for ANY kind of bill to pass.

any bill we put together is best constructed with awareness of opponents, and an eye to compromise on getting SOMETHING done quickly, rather than nothing. we can always modify & improve, but if we miss the chance to pass a bill, thousands of startups will again he stuck waiting to create their businesses and jobs.

again I'm extremely frustrated vivek waited a year to voice his opinions, well after we asked for his input (and actually got it) and support (which he gave, and now is withdrawing).

if not for his "fixing", we might already be able to get the bill to the floor for a vote.

Re: How to Fix the Flawed Startup Visa Act

#13

Post by pg » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:51 PM UTC

trevelyan wrote: post #9

pg wrote: post #2

The mistake happens in these two sentences: "The bill makes the wrong assumption that all startups raise angel or venture capital. As my team’s research has shown, nine out of 10 successful entrepreneurs don’t." Entrepreneurs are not identical with startup founders. An entrepreneur is someone who starts a new business. Only a small fraction of new businesses are startups; most are unscalable service businesses like b…

I think you're mistaken, Paul. Most incubators including YCombinator softly exclude single-founder businesses and yet these probably constitute at least 50% of the pool of start-ups. Add to them all businesses which get profitable enough to avoid taking outside investment and those which never get funding at all and I'd be surprised if 2/10 startup founders raise outside money, even in California. Just assuming peopl…

I'd also be surprised if 2/10 startup founders raise money. That's why I added the qualification "successful."

Pick any non-contrived criterion of startup success you want (going public, exits over a certain threshold, profits over a certain threshold, winning Crunchies, whatever), count the number with and without investors, and let us know what you find.

Re: How to Fix the Flawed Startup Visa Act

#14

Post by kjhgtfbn » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 7:59 PM UTC

ajju wrote: post #8

kjhgtfbn wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The VC investor is, I think, to stop the property loophole that used to apply here. To get a visa you had to invest $1M in a business, so people registered a company, bought a $1M house, leased it to themselves, employed all their family and moved in.

I assume you are referring to the way the government is constraining who they qualify as an 'investor' (someone who has made an investments of at least $50,000 every year for the past 3 years)? It does make sense to have some clause like that to avoid the loophole you mentioned. It is still orthogonal to what I am saying though, which is that once an entrepreneur has raised the money from a qualified investor for a l…

Oh definitely agree - I would say that anybody graduating form a US uni with a science degree should get a green card.

in my own field, we train physics and comp-sci PhDs then throw them out of the country like itinerant fruit pickers.

Re: How to Fix the Flawed Startup Visa Act

#15

Post by trevelyan » Sat, Feb 12, 2011, 9:23 PM UTC

pg wrote: post #13

trevelyan wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're mistaken, Paul. Most incubators including YCombinator softly exclude single-founder businesses and yet these probably constitute at least 50% of the pool of start-ups. Add to them all businesses which get profitable enough to avoid taking outside investment and those which never get funding at all and I'd be surprised if 2/10 startup founders raise outside money, even in California. Just assuming peopl…

I'd also be surprised if 2/10 startup founders raise money. That's why I added the qualification "successful." Pick any non-contrived criterion of startup success you want (going public, exits over a certain threshold, profits over a certain threshold, winning Crunchies, whatever), count the number with and without investors, and let us know what you find.

Vivek has already done the research, and that's where he gets his 90% non-funded figure. If you want details click through the link provided in the TechCrunch article. The methodology is described on page 7 and seems sensible:

http://www.kauffman.org/uploadedFiles/making-of-a-successful...

This isn't an attack on you or YCombinator. It just doesn't make sense to critique Vivek's points by saying that "nearly all successful startups have investors." Because apparently they don't.

Re: How to Fix the Flawed Startup Visa Act

#16

Post by pg » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 12:10 AM UTC

trevelyan wrote: post #15

pg wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also be surprised if 2/10 startup founders raise money. That's why I added the qualification "successful." Pick any non-contrived criterion of startup success you want (going public, exits over a certain threshold, profits over a certain threshold, winning Crunchies, whatever), count the number with and without investors, and let us know what you find.

Vivek has already done the research, and that's where he gets his 90% non-funded figure. If you want details click through the link provided in the TechCrunch article. The methodology is described on page 7 and seems sensible: http://www.kauffman.org/uploadedFiles/making-of-a-successful... This isn't an attack on you or YCombinator. It just doesn't make sense to critique Vivek's points by saying that "nearly all succ…

This paper doesn't support your claim. All it says about the criteria they used to select companies is the industry they were in. E.g. "Aerospace." Is he talking about SpaceX, or someone's 10-person shop making some component for light aircraft? The distinguishing feature of startups is their growth rate, not the industry they're in.

Just look at the evidence in front of you. Think of famous startups you yourself know. Just name 10 well known startups, and see how many in your list haven't taken money from investors.

Re: How to Fix the Flawed Startup Visa Act

#17

Post by bigwally » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 12:51 AM UTC

The entire US visa system is flawed.

The H1B visa allows an entire family to be kicked out of the country with very little notice simply because an employer wants it done.

To extend a visitor visa the person needs to leave the country (further than Canada and Mexico) and return. Great for airlines.

Many companies have employees sitting in Canada who they bring down for meetings every now and then. They just have to stay away longer than 30 days at a time.

Many technology companies have complained, Bill Gates and Google included.

Hillary Clinton (immigration head) is not going to allow anything to improve under her watch. The only real hope is to see what happens with the next election. Hopefully Hillary will be shown the door.

Re: How to Fix the Flawed Startup Visa Act

#18

Post by tptacek » Sun, Feb 13, 2011, 5:13 AM UTC

pg wrote: post #16

trevelyan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vivek has already done the research, and that's where he gets his 90% non-funded figure. If you want details click through the link provided in the TechCrunch article. The methodology is described on page 7 and seems sensible: http://www.kauffman.org/uploadedFiles/making-of-a-successful... This isn't an attack on you or YCombinator. It just doesn't make sense to critique Vivek's points by saying that "nearly all succ…

This paper doesn't support your claim. All it says about the criteria they used to select companies is the industry they were in. E.g. "Aerospace." Is he talking about SpaceX, or someone's 10-person shop making some component for light aircraft? The distinguishing feature of startups is their growth rate, not the industry they're in. Just look at the evidence in front of you. Think of famous startups you yourself kno…

He's saying that "thinking of famous startups you yourself know" is a form of bias. He's just too nice to say it.

Who cares, by the way, whether a startup is going to "scale" past a 10-person shop? A 10-person shop started by an immigrant creates 9 jobs. That's past the threshold in the existing bill you're championing.