Live data from Hacker News

My story as a self-taught AI researcher

blog.floydhub.com

81–90 of 176 posts

Re: My story as a self-taught AI researcher

#81
I don't know why people think getting a credential does nothing or that people "copy and paste" the assignments. Sure it may be possible, but what prevents people from copying and pasting public git repos?

Either way, this whole focus on "portfolios are everything and credentials are meaningless" spits in the face of all the work I did to get my university education. And it didn't involve "copying assignments". And you come out with one hell of a portfolio if you take your education seriously.

I mean I don't think self-educated people are without merit. I happen to think they're really important. But I only ever see them rag on higher education, despite them having "never been there".

Just another example of wunderkin super genius knows all because he was able to follow a non-standard path and make it. Glad he was smart enough to become a Google employee. But I question whether he should be giving advice on paths to get there when there's always many paths to a position. And especially after reading his brief comments on how credentials imply you're a liar.

Re: My story as a self-taught AI researcher

#82
post #6

"Many are realizing that education is a zero-sum credential game." Can this silly meme die already? Maybe it's understandable coming from an economist who values education for no other reason than it's economic effects, but it's strange coming from someone who clearly understands the value of personal development.

My prediction is that whoever comes up with the next forward leap in AI will be someone who at minimum has a firm grasp on the various branches of undergraduate level maths. Naively tinkering with heuristic statistical ML methods like neural nets and hoping that higher level intelligence somehow magically pops out isn't the way forward. We need a more sophisticated approach.

This is logically independent from any claim about the value of formal education. I speak from experience that an undergraduate degree is not necessary in order to gain a firm grasp of undergraduate level math. Happy to elaborate if that is desired.

Re: My story as a self-taught AI researcher

#83
post #17
post #6

"Many are realizing that education is a zero-sum credential game." Can this silly meme die already? Maybe it's understandable coming from an economist who values education for no other reason than it's economic effects, but it's strange coming from someone who clearly understands the value of personal development.

No one doubts the value of personal development, least of all the interviewee. But I'm not sure what that has to do with buying expensive formal education credentials.

Education is more than credentials. It's the opportunity to be a part of a community that cares about ideas and make meaningful relationships with peers and mentors. Education done well unquestionably produces economic benefit. The solution to commodified, low-quality education with questionable benefit is standing up for high-quality education. Pretending that education can't be anything more than it's worse forms is pure stupidity.

Re: My story as a self-taught AI researcher

#84
post #43
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I understand correctly, to reformulate in my own words/views: while the "big data" (datasets) formed and thus owned by big-tech, big-ads, big-brother, etc. may be instrumental to build at-scale solutions for real-world usage (for profit, knowledge, control, whatever actionable goal), fundamental research itself, as done in universities, can move forward without these datasets: using what's publicly available is…

yep, you read that right. Source: I am a PhD student at Stanford at the Stanford Vision and Learning lab ( http://svl.stanford.edu/ ) and read a ton of AI papers. The vast majority of papers are done with datasets anyone can just download / request, as far as I've seen.

All of which is very satisfying! Thank you for the uplifting view.

Re: My story as a self-taught AI researcher

#85

I think in these sorts of discussions two concepts with the same name tend to get conflated, so I think it's important to make a distinction between: 1) AI Research as applying/tweaking known ML/DL methods to a novel problem. I would term these something like "AI Engineering Research" 2) AI Research as examining the theoretical frameworks & approaches to ML/DL in a way that may itself lead to shifts in the understand…

Is AlphaFold 1 or 2?

Neural networks are differentiable regexes that can be trained from examples. In the alpha fold case, which is the case with a lot of bioinformatics actually, is that you don't need to know a lot about the biological domain to be successful in solving "data" problems in the field.

Re: My story as a self-taught AI researcher

#86
This is a great example of how we "collectively" [1] conflate phenomena, skillsets, ... into one topic: machine learning, AI.

1) There is the general phenomena or collective project, where hardware, algorithms and human insights are improved to approach the situation of man-made intelligent machines.

2) There are the people who are designing algorithms, using mathematical intuition and knowledge, analogies with physics, etc... Most people would agree these people are doing optimization / machine learning "proper".

3) There are the people working on improving hardware for machine learning / optimization purpouses, by looking at the most performant algorithms, breaking them down into primitive operations and requirements for hardware, there are also people working on the algorithms themselves and finding computational shortcuts (which can end up in software or hardware, can end up as proprietary knowledge or common knowledge, ...). The distinction between hard and software is somewhat blurry, since hardware designers can optimize or implement a section of software into hardware. A lot of this can still be considered ML "proper".

4) Then there are the people who apply the ML frameworks and their exposed choices and settings to a specific problem domain. Many of them don't need to understand the internals if they don't need state of the art results. Many would nevertheless benefit from understanding the internals, and the requisite math. What I propose is to stop calling their activity as Machine Learning, and instead call it Machine Teaching. They are teachers, and just like elite schools they can choose which specific type of available student they will teach, and they can tweak (or filter from a large family of students) which student they select to teach the task at hand. There are bound to be many advantages of having actual human teachers get involved in machine teaching. These people will not be proficient in designing novel families of students unless they also know the requisite math, and identify those ML papers that are ML "proper" instead of ML "teacher". When trying to find important foundational insights in ML "proper" one is typically overwhelmed by a large surplus of ML "teacher" type papers. These are important datapoints, and necessary to advance human insight into ML "proper", but they are data, not knowledge. There are actual ML "proper" knowledge papers out there that explain why a certain phenomena is such and so, and they get very little attention because they necessarily lag the breakthrough ML datapoint paper, and most ML "teachers" don't have the math background to understand them. So the probability that a given ML "proper" researcher fundamentally improves the state of the art is much higher than the probability that a given ML "teacher" will fundamentally improve the state of the art. At the same time the probability that a given fundamental breakthrough was achieved by an ML "teacher" is higher than the probability that a given fundamental breakthrough was achieved by an ML "proper" researcher:

P( Breakthrough | Proper ) > P ( Breakthrough | teacher)

while

P ( Teacher | Breakthrough ) > P ( Proper | Breakthrough )

Since most people don't have the broad math / physics / ... knowledge to draw on, the number of ML "teachers" is much higher than ML "proper" researchers.

[1] well, really, some actors have vested interests in conflating those together...

EDIT: just to be clear, I am not complaining about ML Teachers, we need the ML Teachers, and their breakthrough datapoints. What I am complaining about, is conflating both activities of ML Proper and ML Teaching. This makes it harder for the few ML Proper researchers to find each other's insights.

Re: My story as a self-taught AI researcher

#87
post #38

Is this guy actually a researcher in the way most people would think of it? That is, someone who pushes the boundaries of science; who develops new AI techniques or finds the hard boundaries of existing AI techniques; who finds new ways compose multiple AI techniques cohesively; who explores the theoretical foundations of AI. Or is he someone who uses AI techniques to solve problems (and then wrote a paper about it)?…

Yes.

From his GH profile looks like he's a competitive applicant for ML engineering positions or perhaps a fellowship/residency/PhD program.

So, a junior researcher at the level of a decent second or third year PhD student. A researcher, maybe someone you'd trust to build a prototype or product, lots of potential, but probably not someone you'd trust to run a research program.

Re: My story as a self-taught AI researcher

#88

I think in these sorts of discussions two concepts with the same name tend to get conflated, so I think it's important to make a distinction between: 1) AI Research as applying/tweaking known ML/DL methods to a novel problem. I would term these something like "AI Engineering Research" 2) AI Research as examining the theoretical frameworks & approaches to ML/DL in a way that may itself lead to shifts in the understand…

I'm having trouble differentiating 1 from 2. Some seem obvious. Discovering deep learning is #2, labeling some data, throwing it at an algorithm after tuning a few hyper parameters sounds like #1. But in my mind there is also a lot of overlap. Mind providing some concrete examples? For instance what is discovering "transfer learning", "pre-training with self-supervised learning", or "building PyTorch"?

I think the questions asked by researchers in #2 are very different from those by that of #1. The questions mostly surround the why's and how's of AI, i.e, mathematical questions. To take examples from deep learning, #2 might ask about the robustness and generalization of deep neural networks, applying dynamics/ODE theory to certain types of neural networks such as ResNets etc.

#1 might ask about the performance of a deep neural network in approximating a given model in a specific application. Alphafold, on the front page currently, is an example of #1.

Re: My story as a self-taught AI researcher

#89
post #81

I don't know why people think getting a credential does nothing or that people "copy and paste" the assignments. Sure it may be possible, but what prevents people from copying and pasting public git repos? Either way, this whole focus on "portfolios are everything and credentials are meaningless" spits in the face of all the work I did to get my university education. And it didn't involve "copying assignments". And y…

yeah, as someone who had a partial education, I totally get the value of a degree, so whenever someone says "higher education is useless" I read it as "However successful I am now, I wasn't the kind of person who would succeed in school then"

Re: My story as a self-taught AI researcher

#90
post #81

I don't know why people think getting a credential does nothing or that people "copy and paste" the assignments. Sure it may be possible, but what prevents people from copying and pasting public git repos? Either way, this whole focus on "portfolios are everything and credentials are meaningless" spits in the face of all the work I did to get my university education. And it didn't involve "copying assignments". And y…

> I don't know why people think getting a credential does nothing

Then actually pay attention to the arguments they're making instead of talking about how offended you are because it goes against your self-interest as a degree holder. It's not as if the people bashing modern education are some kind of elusive minority.

I've got a master's degree and I've always though our education system is stupid, and at least in the U.S. not unlike a giant pyramid scheme given the cost of tuition these days. Absolutely nothing you learn in a college education you can't learn yourself for free on the internet.

Post reply on HN