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Pervasive myths about older software developers

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Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#61

Post by bootload »

nika wrote: post #14

One thing that I think hasn't been recognized by popular engineering culture is that the guys who started programming in the 1970s had a lot less to work with, and had a harder time. They often worked in assembly, and a soldering iron was a legitimate debugging tool. Those who started programming in the 1980s had compilers but languages were something you went out and bought, and they were sold like enterprise softwa…

"... Those who started programming in the 1990s came of age when a major revolution was being effected by Java. ..."

Java revolutionary?

C was revolutionary. It allowed hardware independence compared to assembler. BASIC was revolutionary because it made programming a computer easy enough for kids. Perl was revolutionary to hack the web, as is PHP. TMTOWTDI. But the true revolutionary language is still probably Lisp. Python, Ruby, Javascript are still evolving in a Lispy sort of direction.

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#62

Post by chromatic »

bootload wrote: post #61
nika wrote: post #14

One thing that I think hasn't been recognized by popular engineering culture is that the guys who started programming in the 1970s had a lot less to work with, and had a harder time. They often worked in assembly, and a soldering iron was a legitimate debugging tool. Those who started programming in the 1980s had compilers but languages were something you went out and bought, and they were sold like enterprise softwa…

"... Those who started programming in the 1990s came of age when a major revolution was being effected by Java. ..." Java revolutionary? C was revolutionary. It allowed hardware independence compared to assembler. BASIC was revolutionary because it made programming a computer easy enough for kids. Perl was revolutionary to hack the web, as is PHP. TMTOWTDI. But the true revolutionary language is still probably Lisp.…

Java revolutionary?

It dragged C++ programmers halfway to Lisp, in the sense that hardware abstraction through a VM and automatic GC gradually became acceptable.

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#63

Post by Meiscooldude »

I started programming when I was 14. I'm now 19 and have had the opportunity to work with several other programmers from a very wide age range.

As a young programmer, anyone who has been programming for 10+ years is an ABSOLUTELY necessary resource. Us younger software engineers have a lot to benefit from their experience, and the quicker we realize this the better.

Personally, I haven't noticed any difference in cognitive ability or agility between programmers I've worked with in their early 20's vs 40's. And typically, those who have that extra experience seem to almost always build more reliable and extensible solutions.

I really hate to say it (being as I am 19), I would hire my friend Virgil (who's in his 60's) along with anyone with over 10+ years of experience before I would myself or anyone fresh out of college.

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#64

Post by Meiscooldude »

Meiscooldude wrote: post #63

I started programming when I was 14. I'm now 19 and have had the opportunity to work with several other programmers from a very wide age range. As a young programmer, anyone who has been programming for 10+ years is an ABSOLUTELY necessary resource. Us younger software engineers have a lot to benefit from their experience, and the quicker we realize this the better. Personally, I haven't noticed any difference in cog…

And I disagree with the "Thinks more slowly" idea. Its just absurd. Really, I think most people in this industry would agree, its a lot more like "Thinks about a lot more".

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#65

Post by bootload »

chromatic wrote: post #62
bootload wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... Those who started programming in the 1990s came of age when a major revolution was being effected by Java. ..." Java revolutionary? C was revolutionary. It allowed hardware independence compared to assembler. BASIC was revolutionary because it made programming a computer easy enough for kids. Perl was revolutionary to hack the web, as is PHP. TMTOWTDI. But the true revolutionary language is still probably Lisp.…

Java revolutionary? It dragged C++ programmers halfway to Lisp, in the sense that hardware abstraction through a VM and automatic GC gradually became acceptable.

"... It dragged C++ programmers halfway to Lisp, in the sense that hardware abstraction through a VM and automatic GC gradually became acceptable. ..."

that's funny in a bad sort of way, funny but true.

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#66

Post by [deleted] »

edw519 wrote: post #19

Another "I have witnessed X" so "Y must be true" post. I've been programming commercially for 32 years and in all that time, I have found very little correlation between age and ability to deliver quality software. I have worked with younger, inexperienced, and uneducated programmers who were willing to learn, with minds like sponges and who were a pleasure to work with. They often found or thought of things the rest…

[deleted]

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#67

Post by [deleted] »

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #46
edw519 wrote: post #19

Another "I have witnessed X" so "Y must be true" post. I've been programming commercially for 32 years and in all that time, I have found very little correlation between age and ability to deliver quality software. I have worked with younger, inexperienced, and uneducated programmers who were willing to learn, with minds like sponges and who were a pleasure to work with. They often found or thought of things the rest…

I was right there with you until you mentioned southpaws. I really have little tolerance for that sort of degenerate character. ;) I think that a persistant dedication to improvement is the elusive common trait among "successful" people and projects. I agree with you that "code talks," but want to caution people who would be demure that tooting your own horn when you have victories can get you more pull with manageme…

[deleted]

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#68

Post by wisty »

Isamu wrote: post #5

Old developer here. Nice to affirm that these are "myths" in the sense that they are often not true, but given a random old guy these may be quite accurate. These are observations that people have made of real individuals that do not generalize to the whole group. > Myth: Older software developers are more jaded and cynical and therefore, less desirable in the workplace than younger ones. Younger developers are more…

I think 2 of these myths are applicable to any experience programmer, and 3 of them are about the trade-off between using existing knowledge and learning new things.

Myths 1 (old guys are expensive) and 2 (old guys don't work 80 hours) are the same for any "senior" (read 5 years + experience) programmer. Young programmers will work 80 hour weeks while they build experience and find a better job, but once they become valuable workers (and figure out how to get paid for this value) then they get better jobs. The problem with hiring easily exploitable workers is that they jump ship the minute they figure out that they are being exploited, and replacing them is really expensive (both in fees, and getting the new guy up to speed).

Points 2, 4, and 5 all relate to older minds using existing solutions, rather than figuring out new solutions. This has strengths and weaknesses, but it's generally a strength. The reason older minds use existing solutions is that it's generally cheaper. A friend of mine studied that, and found that when older people are learning a completely new technology, there is a period in which they are not productive (while their brain refuses to switch into learning mode, and tries to find an old model that works OK), then they start ramping up just as good as young people (minus the delay).

The reality is though, there aren't that many completely new technologies. Older people are faster at learning new technologies if they use the same model as an old technology that the young people hadn't learned before.

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