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Let People Move to Jobs

jefftk.com

191–200 of 314 posts

Re: Let People Move to Jobs

#191

The whole idea of remote working to arbitrage cost of living falls apart if you are in any way social. I think that a lot of people banging on about remote work just haven't tried it for an extended period. It works for some, and for those - great. To me, it's just another step down the 'technification' of everything in which people don't speak to the people around them (because they've been 'removed' from their live…

You can work remotely for competitive wages and live in a major city... which is what I do. So no sacrifice of social capital. More employers should embrace tools that let their workers work fully remote. It's started creeping in with more work from home days at most white-collar employers. But you'll have to start judging people by their productivity, not presence in the office. Video chat on demand is just as good…

I agree. In my first sentence I'm specifically referring to the big cost of living arbs.

Re: Let People Move to Jobs

#192

The whole idea of remote working to arbitrage cost of living falls apart if you are in any way social. I think that a lot of people banging on about remote work just haven't tried it for an extended period. It works for some, and for those - great. To me, it's just another step down the 'technification' of everything in which people don't speak to the people around them (because they've been 'removed' from their live…

> I don't want to live in the middle of nowhere and earn 10x what the average local does. I want the people around me to be roughly on my level and share my interests. You're clearly not a camper or a bow hunter, and you clearly have no particular attraction to pickup trucks. Point being, your generalization is actually pretty specific to your set of interests. Other folks couldn't imagine not owning a car, getting r…

Very insightful. I grew up in upstate California and you've pretty well described my kin. I would love to leave the city and move some place similar but to do so would drastically limit my options of employment. The irony is I work in a satellite office where I'm one of 3 on a 20 person team whose located at the company's HQ. My job would be no different if I were physically located some place else.

Re: Let People Move to Jobs

#193
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because remote is hard, if it would be just about typing code then yes you could live in igloo in Greenland. You need people who are able to work remotely together. It is not only about having really smart devs who can grasp how to do Y with tech Z. It is also about having really smart managers and really smart company owners. Building such a team takes years, it is not like you can hire 10 devs, a manager and dump l…

> Because remote is hard, if it would be just about typing code then yes you could live in igloo in Greenland. So is writing maintainable code with actual documentation, etc. And I find that there's a lot of overlap between good remote work and that sort of development. It's a lot hard to slap together undocumented spaghetti and then hand it off to a coworker if you can't bring them over, point at a monitor, and redr…

Yes, I agree.

Then someone could argue: "but you can put linters, automated checks, robust testing". We all know it is not going to work because you cannot fix people problems with technology. I would say that is main point of my argument, even if you have technology to communicate over distance, it is not going to fix people problems.

Re: Let People Move to Jobs

#194
I believe we in the software industry have a moral duty to pursue remote, distributed work, as much as possible, for a few reasons:

The software that runs the world should be developed by people living all over the world, not just people who can move to a few cities. To me, this is part of real diversity. We talk about gathering requirements for software. Well, it's easier to do it when the people developing the software are as diverse as possible. Limiting these jobs to people who are willing and able to move to one of the tech hubs is bound to limit some kinds of diversity.

People should be free to live in and support their local communities. I think a lot of the political polarization that has been building up lately, particularly in the US, is between the "elites" in big cities and the "regular people" in the rest of the country. We should try to reduce that gap. Of course, people who find their local community intolerable should be free to move elsewhere.

Remote work, especially when it's primarily text-based, is also more equitable for people with disabilities. Blind people benefit somewhat from the fact that nobody is relying on facial expressions or body language (assuming video calls aren't a routine thing). For people with other kinds of disabilities, the benefits can be far greater. What would you do if a deaf person or a person with a severe speech impediment applied for a job on your on-site team? Well, if you're primarily using text, it's not as big an issue. Sure, we can always accommodate specific people with specific disabilities, but it's better if the normal way of doing things already works for them.

Disclosure: I currently work at Microsoft, on the main Redmond campus. So call me a hypocrite if you like. But I honestly think I'm doing a lot of good where I'm at, since I work on the Windows accessibility team. I do sometimes bring up the subject of remote work with my colleagues. And whenever I move on, I will probably insist that my next job be remote.

Re: Let People Move to Jobs

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't this been proven false by googlers living in other high cost cities yet earning significantly less than those in SF?

Yes. And if a Googler (and this is true if most others major tech companies too) transfers from SF or NYC to another market, their salary usually drops. In fairness, the drop isn’t 50% or anything like that. And levels (which define the bonus structure) are still the same. If a large company was doing a mass-migration of employees to a new, lower-cost city, it might make sense to keep salaries consistent. But let’s n…

Is the bonus structure really identical in all markets? I've observed a >10x difference in initial equity offers in different markets at GOOG, so I'd be surprised if the other equity compensation is identical across markets.

Re: Let People Move to Jobs

#196
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"On your level" just screams pretentiousness. Since when is money the measure of a man anyways?

It's not really the money, it's the level of education and ambition. I worked remotely from Mount Pleasant, Michigan for a year and had a difficult time finding anyone to talk with about things that were interesting to me. The only group on Meetups.com was "Housewives of Mount Pleasant." Friends are peers that have similar life experiences and values (and humor). Sometimes people like that are hard to find.

IMO when you work remote you can work from a small town OR you can move to other places if you like. For many moving is not an option because the rest of their family is in a place. There are other options other than Mount Pleasant, Michigan and the Bay area

Re: Let People Move to Jobs

#197
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole idea of remote working to arbitrage cost of living falls apart if you are in any way social. Unless you grew up in the area from which you work remotely, in which case you can be more social because connecting with old friends and family is much easier than making new friends at 30+. > If I earned a London salary in my hometown I'd be ostracising myself completely from those around me [...] I don't see ho…

All it would take is the teller at the local bank telling her BFF that you're one of the richest people in the county (which she shouldn't, but she did), and suddenly you're being hit up by every hard-luck case for miles around. You'd be their lottery winner next door. edit Not to mention the target of every drug user and petty criminal.

Even with a great tech salary, your wealth is NOT noteworthy at the local bank.

The amount of ego in this thread is impressive!

Re: Let People Move to Jobs

#198
post #123
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs and companies are rather ephemeral, migration is disruptive of community and family, and demands not just housing but also infrastructure (roads, transit, sewers, power, schools, health). We should understand the value of community and family and moderate the need for migration and make careful use of existing infrastructure. The North of England and cites like Pittsburgh and Detroit are cases in point.

Once upon a time, a rising tide of economic progress would lift all boats in all communities all around the country. Nowadays, we're in a bizarre reality where a 200% productivity gain among the average worker nationwide means a 1500% productivity gain in the top 10% of counties, coupled with a 55% productivity loss in the bottom 90% of counties. (Numbers generated randomly for illustrative purposes). One would expec…

I agree with your assessment and the irony with respect to this topic is a big contributor to the current state of things in places like the Rust Belt is what other's have said is not feasible; jobs moving to the people. If all that manufacturing can move to China why can't FAANG move to Toledo?

Re: Let People Move to Jobs

#199
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"On your level" just screams pretentiousness. Since when is money the measure of a man anyways?

It's not really the money, it's the level of education and ambition. I worked remotely from Mount Pleasant, Michigan for a year and had a difficult time finding anyone to talk with about things that were interesting to me. The only group on Meetups.com was "Housewives of Mount Pleasant." Friends are peers that have similar life experiences and values (and humor). Sometimes people like that are hard to find.

Sounds like you were looking for more of a college town vibe. Austin, Athens, Madison, etc.

Re: Let People Move to Jobs

#200
post #197
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All it would take is the teller at the local bank telling her BFF that you're one of the richest people in the county (which she shouldn't, but she did), and suddenly you're being hit up by every hard-luck case for miles around. You'd be their lottery winner next door. edit Not to mention the target of every drug user and petty criminal.

Even with a great tech salary, your wealth is NOT noteworthy at the local bank. The amount of ego in this thread is impressive!

Seriously, tech has got to have some of the most inflated egos on the planet. Do people in this thread really think there aren't plenty of other people making 150-200+ outside of the major tech hubs? Do they really think they are going to be Mr. Monopoly Man because they have a 150k remote job in Des Moines?
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