Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time? • Hacker News Board

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#41

Post by alok-g » Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 11:16 PM UTC

rst wrote: post #13

tptacek wrote: post #2

Very often, yes. The boilerplate IP contracts provided by most law firms usually claims one of: * All software development work you ever do while employed by the company. * All software development work you do using in any way any resource of the company, from computer to network connection. * All software development work you do related to the business of the company that employs you. * All software development work…

This also varies somewhat by state; there's a law in California (Labor Code section 2870[1]) that bars employers from claiming work that an employee does "on his or her own time without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities or trade secret information" unless the invention relates directly to the employer's business. I'd still check with a lawyer, though, even if in California --- and if elsewhere, mos…

Careful. This applies only to "inventions." Do not generalize this to "work."

Copyrightable works are not included, and so software isn't.

Reason for edit: Fixed typos.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#42

Post by zach » Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 11:20 PM UTC

cryptoz wrote: post #38

zach wrote: post #36

Maybe, but if you don't actually create IP yourself -- you hire a contractor to do what you do at your day job -- you will stay in the clear and gain valuable experience. Managing a contracted worker in your field of expertise, within the creative restriction that you cannot perform their work for them, is itself a highly educational exercise for someone with entrepreneurial interests. Be sure to document well, thoug…

That's all fine and good for legal reasons, but frankly the whole point of doing stuff in my free time is that I want to be the one doing it. Otherwise I wouldn't be doing it in my free time. I get what you're saying from a financial and legal perspective, but it definitely does not solve the greater problem.

Yeah, I understand. You would think that employers would prize the kind of employee who wants to do the same thing in their spare time as they do at the office, wouldn't you?

And yet everywhere they are treated with suspicion.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#43

Post by alok-g » Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 11:25 PM UTC

sabat wrote: post #23

tptacek wrote: post #2

Very often, yes. The boilerplate IP contracts provided by most law firms usually claims one of: * All software development work you ever do while employed by the company. * All software development work you do using in any way any resource of the company, from computer to network connection. * All software development work you do related to the business of the company that employs you. * All software development work…

Not in California; we have a state law that specifically addresses (and forbids) this kind of behavior by companies. I'll let a poster over at the OP speak for me: California is one state where their policy is NOT enforceable as far as their ownership. They may fire you over it but they won't own your work.

Read this again, maybe twice. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab&#3...

Then read your employment contract that you may have signed. It often contains legal terms like "work for hire", etc. that have explicit definitions. Make sure you read your contract after understanding these definitions.

The portions that are not easily enforceable include the following:

You contract may state that the agreement will continue to apply up to six months or one year after you terminate your employment. This provision is generally included by employers so as to prevent employees from coming up with patentable ideas or creating copyrightable works (like software) and "then" terminating their employment pretending none of that happened. Under that scenario, the IP you generate does indeed belong to the company.

On the other hand, if you start your work and develop IP strictly after terminating your employment, court will not honor "non-compete" clauses. This are designed to protect employees who are most likely to continue working in areas of their expertise, which is likely the same as what they were working on while they were employed.

Reason for edit: Fixed some typos.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#44

Post by alok-g » Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 11:35 PM UTC

daimyoyo wrote: post #28

I'm in sales and in my spare time I am creating a program for online data management(which will also create leads although they're B2B and my company does B2C). Can I use the "not work related" exemption or should I renegotiate my employment agreement? I work in Nevada. Thank you for any help you can give me.

PS: I am not a lawyer, although have done extensive online research on these issues.

1. "Not work related" gives you an incomplete picture (not related to who's work?). That it is not related to your work is not enough. It must not be related to the employer's line of work, or anticipated line of work. Even if one person in the company is working on a related item, the your work may belong to the company. Even if one person in the company is anticipating the same, you have a potential issue. (See item 3 below for a related issue.)

2. The normal meaning of "related" also should not be taken at face value. If you are making burgers for MacDonald's while making a software side project, you are likely to be OK (and I am guessing that McDonald's would make you sign an employment agreement for these issues also). If you are in sales for a technical company and are making a software, they can easily be considered to be "related" by your company or the court.

3. Keep in mind that in any case the onus of proving is on you, so you the legal costs of proving you are clean would fall on you. That also means that in case of trouble, the court may initially side the employer and wait for you to prove you are clean to turn to your side.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#45

Post by alok-g » Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 11:38 PM UTC

I found this to be an excellent resource for this topic.

http://www.amazon.com/Intellectual-Property-Open-Source-Prot...

While this has "open source" in the title, it's still an excellent book related to this topic.

Another good thing about this book is that it draws analogies between software source code and law statutes, making it very easy for software folks to understand these legal issues.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#46

Post by ckcheng » Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 11:40 PM UTC

run4yourlives wrote: post #33

Not in Canada they don't. The courts will look at every case individually but unless there is obvious malfeasance on behalf of the employee, any "we own you" contracts are unenforceable. (Point being that it depends on where you live.)

Do you have any links, references on this??

Specific to Canada - and Alberta - would be nice. :)

I'm trying to find more info on this, and can't find any relevant info on Google...

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#47

Post by alok-g » Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 11:41 PM UTC

modoc wrote: post #11

In general you should avoid signing the standard contracts at any job. I've always made changes to protect my after-hours work, and they've been okayed every single time.

That's good advice. I wish it came to me earlier!!

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#48

Post by alok-g » Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 11:44 PM UTC

mkramlich wrote: post #26

I wouldn't mind allowing a company to have rights over what I do on my own time as long as I get ownership rights over everything else the company is doing, regardless of whether I'm involved or not. Fair's fair.

It does not depend unfortunately whether you mind or not.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#49

Post by mkramlich » Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 11:46 PM UTC

alok-g wrote: post #48

mkramlich wrote: post #26

I wouldn't mind allowing a company to have rights over what I do on my own time as long as I get ownership rights over everything else the company is doing, regardless of whether I'm involved or not. Fair's fair.

It does not depend unfortunately whether you mind or not.

where there's a will there's a way :P

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#50

Post by alok-g » Fri, Feb 11, 2011, 11:47 PM UTC

bcrawford wrote: post #16

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab&#3... Unless I'm reading this wrong: if you work on it solely on your time, with your equipment, it's yours (in California, anyway). UPDATE: Oh, also it can't compete with their business.

People, this link talks about "inventions". Nothing else is included in this. Please do not generalize this to "work".

If you invent something while adhering to the statutes stated here, and write software implementing that invention, then the invention would belong to you. But the software doesn't! Software is subject to copyrights, not inventions.