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Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

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Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#81
post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

I looked into the complexity of games a few years ago, approximating this as the number of bytes needed to implement the rules as a program: https://www.jefftk.com/p/simplest-interesting-game

Bottom line numbers:

    280 gomoku
    356 hex
    483 dots and boxes
    572 go
    622 checkers

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#82
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some birds that are better at tool use than you might think, too. It's worth pointing out that Go is a purely mathematical game. You don't need a board at all to play it, especially not if your memory is good enough. Chess Grandmasters don't need boards to play Chess, for example; they can simply say the moves to each other and both will have the same image of the board in their mind. So you could have inte…

> It's worth pointing out that Go is a purely mathematical game. You don't need a board at all to play it, especially not if your memory is good enough. Chess Grandmasters don't need boards to play Chess, for example; they can simply say the moves to each other and both will have the same image of the board in their mind. Is it common to be able to play Go without a board? That seems to require storing 361 bits in yo…

We're talking about hypothetical alien species here. But yes, Go is a purely mathematical game. If you don't have amazing memory you can represent those bits in a computer and it's still the same exact game. The physical board is just a physical representation of Go; it's not an actual relevant part of it (compared with, say, billiards).

But yes, there are even some people that can play Go in their head. You're wrong about the amount of information though; each piece on the board has 3 potential states, not just two. Though you can chunk the board pretty effectively and it becomes more about memorizing larger patterns than the state of every single spot on the board. Plus, the board never fills up, so you only need to remember the spaces with pieces in them, not every space.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#83
I once tried to write a math/CS nerd's description of the rules of Go. There's an XHTML file of the results at https://pastebin.com/Cn7tbv98 if anyone is curious.

Below is a text version:

Here is an attempt to describe the rules of Go precisely. This is actually for a generalization of Go that I call MANGO, which stands for MAth Nerd Go

Equipment

To play Mango, you need the following:

• A countable set, I.

• A set, C, whose members are subsets of I, each of which contains exactly two members of I.

• Three subsets of I, called E, B, and W, such that their union is I, and the intersections of any pair of them is empty.

• A real-valued function F, whose domain is I.

• A function, T, whose range is {0,1}, that is defined on the real numbers.

Definitions

• If P is a finite subset of C, and n is a member of I, then the INDEX of n in P is the number of elements of P that contain n.

• A finite subset, P, of C is called a PATH if the following conditions are met:

1. Each element of I has an index in P of 0, 1, or 2.

2. There are exactly two elements of I whose index in P is 1.

• An element of I whose index in a path is 1 is called an ENDPOINT of the path.

• An element of I whose index in a path is 2 is called an INTERIOR point of the path.

• Let S be one of the sets B or W. Let s be a member of S. Let L be the set of all members, e, of E, such that there is a path whose endpoints are s and e, and whose interior points are all in S or E. Let z be the sum over L of F. Then s is ALIVE if T(z) = 1.

• The ordered triple (E,B,W) is called the CONFIGURATION.

Playing

The players must first obtain a Mango set. This consists of agreeing to the sets I, C, E, B, and W, and the functions F and T.

The players must agree to an initial score for each player.

The players than decide who shall have the first turn. Players alternate turns.

On a players turn, that player may do one of two things:

• The player may PASS. It then becomes the other players turn.

• The player may make a LEGAL MOVE.

Note that a player MUST either pass or play a legal move. If there is no legal move, the player is forced to pass.

A MOVE consists of performing several actions. In the following, if it is Black's turn we will use the symbol M to refer to the set B and the symbol H to refer to the set set W. If it is White's turn, M will be W and H will be B. Here are the actions that are taken by a player on that players turn:

• A member, n, of E is selected.

• n is removed from E and added to M.

• All members of H that are not alive at the end of the above step are removed from H and placed in E.

• All members of M that are not alive at the end of the previous step are removed from M and placed in E.

A move is a LEGAL MOVE if the configuration, (E,B,W), produced by the move is new.

The game ends when two consecutive turns are passes.

Scoring

Each player uses the following procedure to compute his score. We will use the symbol M to refer to B if the player is Black, and to refer to W if the player is White.

We use the symbol H to refer I-(E union M).

The player starts with the initial score agreed upon at the start of the game.

For each m in M, the player receives F(m) points.

A player receives F(n) points for each member, n, of E for which the following conditions both hold:

• There exists a path with n as one endpoint and the other endpoint in M, and which contains no members of H as interior points.

• All paths that contain n as one endpoint and a member of H as the other endpoint contain a member of M as an interior point.

The player with the most points wins.

Example

To play ordinary 19x19 Go, with a 5.5 point Komi, the players might agree to the following:

• I = { (x,y) | x and y are integers in [1,19] }

• C = { {(x,y),(u,v)} | (x,y) and (u,v) are in I, (x-u)^2+(y-v)^2 = 1 }

• B = W = {}

• E = I

• The initial scores are 0 for Black, 5.5 for White.

• It is Blacks turn.

• F((x,y)) = 1

• T(z) = int((z+360)/361)

To play a Go-like game on an infinite board, the players might agree to this:

• I = { (x,y) | x and y are integers }

• C = { {(x,y),(u,v)} | (x,y) and (u,v) are in I, (x-u)^2+(y-v)^2 = 1 }

• B = W = {}

• E = I

• Initial scores are Black:0, White:0.

• It is Black to move.

• F((x,y)) = exp(-x^2-y^2)

• T(z) = 1 if z > 1/1000, otherwise T(z) = 0

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#84
post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

I discovered a game in the Go family.

It's played on a grid of overlapping circles, without counting the origin as an intersection.

Every intersection has exactly four liberties, so it adds an optional move of a stone after each placement. Liberties are counted after both the placement and the move, so a player can't occupy a point with no liberties and then slide to capture.

Anecdotally, it's enjoyable.

Thing is, I came up with it in the year 2000, and it doesn't appear to have existed before that. This experience has left me skeptical that it's obvious that an alien race came up with Go. They might have.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#85
post #81
post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

I looked into the complexity of games a few years ago, approximating this as the number of bytes needed to implement the rules as a program: https://www.jefftk.com/p/simplest-interesting-game Bottom line numbers: 280 gomoku 356 hex 483 dots and boxes 572 go 622 checkers

This is awesome!

Any idea where Chess would stack up? I'm assuming it'd be greater than Checkers in that list, but how much greater? And would Nim be simpler than Gomoku (Connect-N)?

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is gravity, but Tetris pieces are dropped from very high, and have achieved terminal velocity by the time they reach your board.

I know we're firmly into joke territory at this point, but anyway, if that were true, then line pieces would fall faster when oriented vertically than horizontally. Clearly the real answer is that Tetris is played in a weightless vacuum, and that pieces are shot at a constant speed from somewhere offscreen.

>Clearly the real answer is that Tetris is played in a weightless vacuum, and that pieces are shot at a constant speed from somewhere offscreen.

Obviously not, since the speed increases as the game progresses (of course the planet could have increased its mass in the meantime).

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#87
Can someone explain this Q/A to me?

> Is there a safe way to prevent Mirror Go?

> A really sad result of talking to God about go would be that there is a way to just play mirror go and win. If that was all god did, it would be really annoying. If mirror go doesn't actually work, how does God defeat it? Do the variants where W is just not allowed to mirror fix the issue?

The first way I was aware of was that the primary player could surround the center. They'll capture the mirroring player's stones one turn before the mirroring player can surround theirs, and the mirroring player loses the stones they need to do a mirrored capture.

Sensei's Library [0] has a few other ways as well.

[0] https://senseis.xmp.net/?CounteringMirrorGo

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#88
post #13
post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

> My gut response would be yes I'd guess no, since there doesn't seem to be another human culture / civilization that independently invented it.

The thing I find fascinating, is not that Go was invented only once, but that it didn't spread to the West until 1880.

Chess, by contrast, propagated rapidly throughout the Old World.

I don't have an explanation for this. It seems curious.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#89
post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

I discovered a game in the Go family. It's played on a grid of overlapping circles, without counting the origin as an intersection. Every intersection has exactly four liberties, so it adds an optional move of a stone after each placement. Liberties are counted after both the placement and the move, so a player can't occupy a point with no liberties and then slide to capture. Anecdotally, it's enjoyable. Thing is, I…

I meant to say, any given alien race.

If there are enough intelligent aliens than it's just a numbers game.

But would it be more than half? I doubt this. Sure would be fun to find out.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#90
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked into the complexity of games a few years ago, approximating this as the number of bytes needed to implement the rules as a program: https://www.jefftk.com/p/simplest-interesting-game Bottom line numbers: 280 gomoku 356 hex 483 dots and boxes 572 go 622 checkers

This is awesome! Any idea where Chess would stack up? I'm assuming it'd be greater than Checkers in that list, but how much greater? And would Nim be simpler than Gomoku (Connect-N)?

If you or someone else would like to have a go at writing one I'd be happy to review and add it!

https://github.com/jeffkaufman/game-complexity

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