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Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

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Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#41

Post by tarvaina »

Sharlin wrote: post #30
mcbuilder wrote: post #23

Would not Alpha Go Zero and related algorithms give us a good insight into the question about what openings alien's might play? Isn't it really tackling the game from first (or zeroth if you will) principles, just simulated games without the historical baggage coming from human study. It has also considerably changed our own knowledge of the opening.

I don’t think so. The go that AlphaGo plays is one very specific type of ”alien go” that exploits the strengths of the computing substrate it thinks on. Alien entities that are still evolved via natural selection would probably play go differently from humans based on their own biological and cultural idiosyncracies, but I doubt it would on average be closer to how a Monte Carlo tree search running on transistors pla…

This is a good point. While Alpha Zero etc. are much stronger than humans, they may have weak areas. Actually we know one: ladders.

Ladder is a fundamental technique that is easy for humans but hard for both monte carlo and neural network static analysis. It is plausible that an equally strong but more ladder-aware player would have very different tactics from the current best computer players.

The original AlphaGo actually had a hand-crafted ladder feature input layer. It was removed in Alpha Zero. We know from Leela Zero and ELF Go game records that they don’t understand ladders very well, so likely Alpha Zero didn’t understand them either.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#42

Post by tarvaina »

tarvaina wrote: post #41
Sharlin wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think so. The go that AlphaGo plays is one very specific type of ”alien go” that exploits the strengths of the computing substrate it thinks on. Alien entities that are still evolved via natural selection would probably play go differently from humans based on their own biological and cultural idiosyncracies, but I doubt it would on average be closer to how a Monte Carlo tree search running on transistors pla…

This is a good point. While Alpha Zero etc. are much stronger than humans, they may have weak areas. Actually we know one: ladders. Ladder is a fundamental technique that is easy for humans but hard for both monte carlo and neural network static analysis. It is plausible that an equally strong but more ladder-aware player would have very different tactics from the current best computer players. The original AlphaGo a…

Actually if anyone here follows current go bot development, I would like to know if they currently have some specific ladder features to address this weakness?

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#43

Post by mjw1007 »

beojan wrote: post #13
CydeWeys wrote: post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

> My gut response would be yes I'd guess no, since there doesn't seem to be another human culture / civilization that independently invented it.

I think if Go hadn't been already known, it would have been discovered in the twentieth century.

Dozens, if not hundreds, of other abstract games were, and I don't think there are many as simple.

It's not so obvious that anyone would have noticed how good a game it can be.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#45

Post by grawprog »

CydeWeys wrote: post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

>If Shogi, Checkers, or Stratego weren't human games I wouldn't be surprised to learn them from aliens.

Why do all theories about aliens start with the implication that they're similar enough that they developed the way we did, they think like we do, have similar senses, brain structure and locomotion.

Any aliens that have evolved to any kind of level of intelligence would have done so under the conditions specific to their planet. Given the huge variation of life on Earth over its existence and that humans in their current form, or even animals in their current form, have existed for such a tiny insignificst fraction of time that it seems kind of preposterous to assume aliens elsewhere are anything like us in the slightest.

Humans have problems anthropomorphizing animals as it is, but when it comes to aliens it just seems like everything starts with, well of course they must do the things we do....

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#46

Post by CydeWeys »

grawprog wrote: post #45
CydeWeys wrote: post #6

> Is go played anywhere else in the universe, and was it discovered by chance there? > What openings do aliens play? I love these questions about if anyone else in the universe is playing Go. My gut response would be yes -- it's a simple enough game (regular game grid of any size roughly 5x5 on up, one type of piece, two players take turns alternating placing pieces, and any that are surrounded are removed). I suspec…

>If Shogi, Checkers, or Stratego weren't human games I wouldn't be surprised to learn them from aliens. Why do all theories about aliens start with the implication that they're similar enough that they developed the way we did, they think like we do, have similar senses, brain structure and locomotion. Any aliens that have evolved to any kind of level of intelligence would have done so under the conditions specific t…

Why are people so quick to assume that every single other alien species would be completely unfathomable to us? We all share the same physics, chemistry, and mathematics of our common universe. For example, there's only three dimensions, and there's only three regular polygons that can tessellate a grid. Unless you're going to posit that there's no alien species whatsoever that will even come up with the concept of a game (which I find highly doubtful), they're going to be using the same abstract mathematical concepts as we are in building said games, because only so many abstract mathematical concepts even exist.

Our simplest board games aren't that far removed from the realm of the purely mathematical. And yet aliens won't all have their own completely different mathematical systems; such a thing isn't possible.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#47

Post by kburman »

Now i wonder will God know everything that universe has to offer.

For example i wrote a 3 page article. Even would be surprised be surprised if a person came and tell me if we took all the characters at prime number it would be a valid sentence about an event going to happen in future.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#48

Post by CydeWeys »

mjw1007 wrote: post #43
beojan wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My gut response would be yes I'd guess no, since there doesn't seem to be another human culture / civilization that independently invented it.

I think if Go hadn't been already known, it would have been discovered in the twentieth century. Dozens, if not hundreds, of other abstract games were, and I don't think there are many as simple. It's not so obvious that anyone would have noticed how good a game it can be.

That's a rough thought. Imagine if Go were roughly as popular as, say, Tri-Ominoes, and wasn't taken seriously enough to develop the truly competitive tournament scene it has today.

I want to say that board game players are pretty good at recognizing strategic depth, and that good games naturally rise to the top and become widespread, and their mechanics are reused and evolved in further board games. You certainly see this with Euro-style board games at least.

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#49

Post by andai »

CydeWeys wrote: post #46
grawprog wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If Shogi, Checkers, or Stratego weren't human games I wouldn't be surprised to learn them from aliens. Why do all theories about aliens start with the implication that they're similar enough that they developed the way we did, they think like we do, have similar senses, brain structure and locomotion. Any aliens that have evolved to any kind of level of intelligence would have done so under the conditions specific t…

Why are people so quick to assume that every single other alien species would be completely unfathomable to us? We all share the same physics, chemistry, and mathematics of our common universe. For example, there's only three dimensions, and there's only three regular polygons that can tessellate a grid. Unless you're going to posit that there's no alien species whatsoever that will even come up with the concept of a…

So, the smartest animals on earth apart from primates are dolphins, crows and octopuses. But most aliens are portrayed as humanoids. I can't remember a single alien movie with sea creatures or intelligent birds. But if anyone knows some, please let me know :)

I think the body shape part is relevant here because it determines what kinds of games are possible or practical. A species of intelligent octopuses might play games involving changing their pigment (in wavelengths we can't even see!) or manipulating eight things at once. Bird games might involve flying competitions etc.

Edit: I guess the important part here in a species inventing Go, is having a body that can make a board game (or similar representation). Hands are pretty good for crafting tables and moving small pieces around. Beaks and snouts less so. (I'd put my money with the octopus.)

Re: Questions I would ask God about the game of Go

#50

Post by somesortofsystm »

H8crilA wrote: post #37

Funny that God is just a PSPACE oracle. At least in the sense that the oracle can answer essentially all of those questions.

Well, the premise of the exercise is that One can even Communicate to God, so this is two or three incongruencies away from being infinitely unsolvable. Atari!
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