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Hosni Mubarak finally steps down

english.aljazeera.net

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Re: Hosni Mubarak finally steps down

#121

Post by defen »

siculars wrote: post #44

I am so happy for the people of Egypt. This is one for the history books. Our kids will be reading about this revolution as an example of the peaceful power of the people. I have to congratulate AlJazeera for their tremendous coverage of unfolding events. They have been very professional and fearless in their reporting. Western media should take notes. Who knows what tomorrow will bring but for now Egypt and the enti…

When I see this kind of reaction, I can't help but think that the speaker is a "True Believer" in democracy and mob rule (in the Eric Hoffer sense). I readily concede that I know nothing about Egypt or what is going on there, but don't you think it's a little too early to congratulate and feel happy for the people? You even admit that no one knows what the country will be like in the next few years, but you want to celebrate, simply because they overthrew their president!

Re: Hosni Mubarak finally steps down

#122

Post by siculars »

ido wrote: post #114
siculars wrote: post #44

I am so happy for the people of Egypt. This is one for the history books. Our kids will be reading about this revolution as an example of the peaceful power of the people. I have to congratulate AlJazeera for their tremendous coverage of unfolding events. They have been very professional and fearless in their reporting. Western media should take notes. Who knows what tomorrow will bring but for now Egypt and the enti…

Mazal Tov to the people of Egypt! Why would you congratulate the people of Egypt in Hebrew?

Why would it matter?

Re: Hosni Mubarak finally steps down

#123

Post by siculars »

defen wrote: post #121
siculars wrote: post #44

I am so happy for the people of Egypt. This is one for the history books. Our kids will be reading about this revolution as an example of the peaceful power of the people. I have to congratulate AlJazeera for their tremendous coverage of unfolding events. They have been very professional and fearless in their reporting. Western media should take notes. Who knows what tomorrow will bring but for now Egypt and the enti…

When I see this kind of reaction, I can't help but think that the speaker is a "True Believer" in democracy and mob rule (in the Eric Hoffer sense). I readily concede that I know nothing about Egypt or what is going on there, but don't you think it's a little too early to congratulate and feel happy for the people? You even admit that no one knows what the country will be like in the next few years, but you want to c…

Guilty as charged. I am a "True Believer" in Democracy. Also, I believe truly that power and the right to govern is bestowed by the people. Clearly the people carried the day in Egypt.

Nobody knows what tomorrow will bring but it will not be under the foot of a dictator at least we know that - and how could that be bad? Am I scared that things will not go so well, sure. But I'm an optimist and I got to work for and I got to hope that things will work out for the best - for Egyptians, for Arabs, for Muslims, for Africans, for Israel, for Americans and for all people who want to be free.

Re: Hosni Mubarak finally steps down

#125

Post by beambot »

ceejayoz wrote: post #102
shareme wrote: post #21

the bad thing is that HM stole $50 billion from the citizens of Egypt..and the USA does nothing and UN does nothing

That $50 billion number seems to have been fished out of thin air. IIRC, the US government estimates his fortune at closer to $2 billion. Large, yes, but not at the same level.

Seriously? To me, the difference between $2B and $50B seems like diminishing returns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns). If you disagree, then I'd like to be you for a few days... ;-)

Re: Hosni Mubarak finally steps down

#126

Post by ido »

siculars wrote: post #122
ido wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mazal Tov to the people of Egypt! Why would you congratulate the people of Egypt in Hebrew?

Why would it matter?

It wouldn't, I assumed you spoke neither languages and have mistaken "mazal tov" for Arabic.

It's "mabruk" btw.

Re: Hosni Mubarak finally steps down

#127

Post by ido »

fleitz wrote: post #117
ido wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mazal Tov to the people of Egypt! Why would you congratulate the people of Egypt in Hebrew?

I'd suspect that after enduring 30 years of struggle against a dictator that they wouldn't care what language they were cheered in. Most people just want to live in peace, it's only those who have an axe to grind that incite things by worrying what language someone is congratulated in.

Hebrew is my mother-tongue, I have no axe to grind.

Re: Hosni Mubarak finally steps down

#128

Post by _djo_ »

logjam wrote: post #76

Another example of nonviolent action leading to real political change. Now if the U.S. government gets on the ball, they will redirect some substantial portion of the Egyptian ~$2 billion military aid and announce we will help build science and technical schools, universities, and hospitals. Thanks to those of you who have been hosting and continue to host Tor bridges in support of emerging democracies: https://www.t…

Halting or redirecting the military aid would be the worst thing the US could do, because it would force the military (the guys who are actually in charge now) into a corner, remove any hope of being able to co-operate with it and undermine the most important source of stability the country has.

In any case, Egypt's security requirements are not going anywhere and the country will still have to maintain a sizable military in future, so cutting the funding will just mean that the state will have to obtain replacement funds from the national budget. Right now the $2 billion that the US gives to the Egyptian military is $2 billion that's freed up for the state to spend on other things like schools, universities and hospitals. That they don't do a good enough job of that already is due more to corruption than to any actual lack of funds.

Re: Hosni Mubarak finally steps down

#129

Post by _djo_ »

philsalesses wrote: post #68

This is a side question and I'd like to get any/all opinions since I have yet to find a suitable answer to this. How do I, as an American citizen, minimize cognitive dissonance when the following disparate events occur? America's stance: democracy and 'freedom' are fundamental rights of all people. -and- America's actions: refusing to recognize a democratically elected body because the resulting will of the people is…

The positions are not fundamentally opposed. You can believe that people have the right to choose their own leaders while also believing both that they should be accountable for that choice and that those leaders can be ignored or shunned if they do not follow the rules of the international community.

In other words, the only legitimacy that being elected democratically confers on leaders is that of being the authentic representatives of their people. The greater legitimacy of a government as a member of the international community of states might be influenced by whether it's democratic or not but is determined mostly by that governments actions and stated intentions. Hamas has refused to agree to steps, such as renouncing terrorism, that the US, EU and Israel believe are fundamental to a government being a member of the international community.

So they have accepted the results of the election, but they're under no obligation to be friendly with the result.

With that said, like all great powers the US's foreign policy is at times hypocritical to some extent. It will extol the virtues of rapid democratic change in some countries while discouraging it in others. This seeming mismatch in standards is the problem with a foreign policy with an idealistic rhetoric but a realpolitik reality. The truth is that encouraging rapid democratic change in all cases would be foolish and irresponsible, because it could lead to far worse outcomes than the status quo. Some countries can handle that kind of explosive change, others can't and need to be shepherded towards it at a slower rate. I think Egypt falls into the latter category.

Re: Hosni Mubarak finally steps down

#130

Post by _djo_ »

bugsy wrote: post #25
csomar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But there is an election coming up next. Now they have just began, Tunisia has just began too. There is an opportunity here since media will be opened (it already opened in Tunisia) and also the doors for true opponents. It's time to guard the election and ensure that the right one is elected. We have just began, and I hope everything will be fine.

Many Egyptians were talking about having a constitutional convention to decide what sort of government they want. Perhaps it will acknowledge inalienable rights reserved to the people for example. Hopefully that will be the next step, anything less than starting from scratch with their government is going to leave the old system and those who gained power from it in place.

That would be the smartest thing that they could possibly do, especially if they take the opportunity to define a constitution with strong protections for negative rights. With enough care they'll constrain any future government, protect fundamental freedoms and kill two birds with one stone by easing Western fears about the Muslim Brotherhood assuming power.

They would do well to learn from South Africa's example in this. I honestly believe that if it was not for the phased departure of apartheid from 1990 to 1994, combined with the constitutional convention and the preservation of the national police and the military, South Africa's transition would have ended in disaster. In the end the security forces played a massive role in creating a stable enough environment for the vital negotiations to take place and without the work of the military behind the scenes it's doubtful that the 1994 election would have happened at all.

So the biggest mistake now would be to rush this. Egyptians need to understand that the steps they take next are going to set the stage for the next 30 years and determine whether Mubarak will be followed by a true multi-party democracy or by yet another group of thuggish oppressors. They had better make it count.

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