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Offshoring: does it ever work?

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Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#51

Post by rbranson »

statictype wrote: post #38

It does work. More than you think. The companies that are successful in outsourcing are not looking to get high quality software done cheap. They're looking for someone to take the burden of the whole process of developing software from the ground up from their basic (but vast and hairy) requirements. This means, having a system in place to make sure every requirement that was specified was tracked and accounted for…

Outsourcing != off-shoring. Nobody is saying outsourcing is bad, as I'm sure a very large portion of HN's users are freelance developers and/or consultants.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#52

Post by rbranson »

nhashem wrote: post #49

It doesn't work because this is what happens. You're working for your mid-sized company, a couple hundred employees, and they had just a great 2010. The parent company is willing to invest in further growth, and at the top-level growth means headcount, headcount, headcount. So they hire a couple dozen people with titles like "product manager" and "business analyst" and the tech project pipeline, already stuffed to be…

There are bad developers everywhere, they just don't try it with local people because there's very little cost advantage. Good developers can demand high wages regardless of where they are located.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#53

Post by chanakya »

nhashem wrote: post #49

It doesn't work because this is what happens. You're working for your mid-sized company, a couple hundred employees, and they had just a great 2010. The parent company is willing to invest in further growth, and at the top-level growth means headcount, headcount, headcount. So they hire a couple dozen people with titles like "product manager" and "business analyst" and the tech project pipeline, already stuffed to be…

Based on this and many other similar stories I've read, I've formed a general law about offshoring: if you want it to succeed, never ask your engineers/engineering managers to do it.

I'm part of the management of a large product development setup in India, and here's my comment on a very similar story earlier on HN:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1481732

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#54

Post by rbranson »

nika wrote: post #2

I can't speak from experience, but my perspective is that offshoring works great when what you're offshoring is the building of machine tools, toys, furniture, computer components and even whole computers, cars, etc. I'm sure apple, for instance, spends a lot of time making sure that foxconn builds the iPhone right. But Apple is not offshoring the software or the design of the iPhone. For whatever reason, software de…

Software development IS design, not production. The compiler (or interpreter) and computer itself does all the production. That's the point of software and computers in general.

Developed countries have the advantage because it is more desirable to live in them, and talented designers of all types are scarce and can command high enough wages on the world market to easily afford their higher cost of living.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#55

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

raganwald wrote: post #17

Blatant plug: What you want is near -shoring. Canadian development shops and remote Canadian developers are like "Mexicans with sweaters." Lower cost-of-living, we have our family's health care taken care of while we work on your start-up, and our subsidized universities churn out a steady stream of new grads. Add in the fact that we speak English (even if our spelling has idiosyncrasies like "cheque," "colour," and…

Add Northern Minnesota. The Duluth Chamber of Commerce (I think) has been pushing the "Offshore to the North Shore" program for a few years. Low cost of living + nearby universities graduating MIS people == opportunities.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#56

Post by sedachv »

raganwald wrote: post #17

Blatant plug: What you want is near -shoring. Canadian development shops and remote Canadian developers are like "Mexicans with sweaters." Lower cost-of-living, we have our family's health care taken care of while we work on your start-up, and our subsidized universities churn out a steady stream of new grads. Add in the fact that we speak English (even if our spelling has idiosyncrasies like "cheque," "colour," and…

"Lower cost-of-living, we have our family's health care taken care of while we work on your start-up, and our subsidized universities churn out a steady stream of new grads."

Cost of living really depends. There's lots of inexpensive places with tons of techies in the States - cost of living in Montreal is about the same as Austin, and more expensive than Portland. Vancouver and Calgary are both really expensive - maybe just slightly less than SF.

Provincial health insurance doesn't cover dental or eyeglasses.

All the really good guys in my graduating CS class (University of Calgary) went to work or grad school in Silicon Valley or NYC. I was the only one that came back, and the only reason I'm sticking around is because I like Montreal and want to go get an MBA here while it's still subsidized - I'm going to start this September, and will be in the last class before the Quebec provincial tuition subsidies are lifted in 2012. Canadian education will get a lot more expensive in the next few years.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#57

Post by raganwald »

tel wrote: post #48
raganwald wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exact wording was meant as a joke! The meta-message is, just start asking. Tell the world what you're doing and make it clear that you're open to talking to remote workers with North American roots. The rest will follow.

Good! The significant amount of context is that, coming om your previous writing, I seriously hope you're not dabbling in something like nano-statistical-adversarial-mating-synergisms.

We pride ourselves on delivering fully buzzword-compliant solutions.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#58

Post by westajay »

Offshoring is an economic phenomenon involving organizations that only know how to measure their IT effectiveness using cost.

Personal experience is that I've never seen it work, but that's only from my own sample set.

Have also seen a lot of "in-shoring" activity, where consultants are brought in to try and rebuild after a disastrous outsourcing scenario where agreed to service levels could not be maintained.

I've been horrified at the skill level of outsourced resources, not just technically, but chronic deficits in communication, planning and analysis skills.

It feels to me like a big Ponzi scheme that in the end costs clients more, but wish I had more data to back up this assertion.

I have seen some offshore people that are skilled let down but unskilled managers that have been brought into manage IT from other industries, such as manufacturing. Or, offshoring teams put into a skapegoat role by clients that couldn't fix their own problems.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#59

Post by tel »

raganwald wrote: post #57
tel wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good! The significant amount of context is that, coming om your previous writing, I seriously hope you're not dabbling in something like nano-statistical-adversarial-mating-synergisms.

We pride ourselves on delivering fully buzzword-compliant solutions.

Makes me want to write a nano-statistical buzzword generative model.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#60

Post by TheSOB88 »

roc wrote: post #23
wccrawford wrote: post #4

Yes. If you know what you want, can explain it simply, and it can be done simply and repeatedly, offshoring works quite well. It's far cheaper than doing it in-house. However, if you miss any of the above, it's going to be a nightmare. The 'repeatedly' part is the key to making it cheap. 1-off solutions are cheaper in-house because of all the design work. Things that can be done repeatedly (like webscraping different…

If you know what you want and can explain it simply, odds are it's not your core business and you should just buy something off-the-shelf even cheaper. edit: grammar

..If such a thing exists.
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