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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#51

Post by oefrha »

> We spend billions of dollars training women in STEM. By not making full use of their skills, if we look at only the american economy, we are wasting about $1.5 billion USD per year in economic benefits they would have produced if they stayed in STEM. So here’s a business proposal: ...

With all due respect, I don’t understand this call to action. Faculty position is basically a zero sum game. If more women end up as faculty, fewer men will. So, unless it costs more to train women than men, I doubt any “investment” would be saved (and that’s not the point of gender equality anyway).

Btw, this maternal wall idea is nothing new. I talked to my mother about gender inequality in hiring many years ago and she was quick to point this out (didn’t call it “maternal wall” though).

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#52

Post by o_p »

krastanov wrote: post #17
o_p wrote: post #12

Its almost like they are biologically and mentally hard-wired to have children! How dares nature to create a unequal duality with specialized roles.

I, and many others, hold the expectation that we are quite capable of overcoming our animal instincts (in this, but importantly in many other aspects also) to make a better world. Especially if the presence of the instinct is used as a pseudo science excuse.

But it will really lead us to a better world? Theres a reason why we have instincts, its so arrogant from the enlightened westerns to think they know better than literally every other society in history.

Take it as anecdotal experience, I dont have a study right here and women are free to do whatever they want. But a childless life is much more likely to be a less happier and a unfulfilling life.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#53

Post by [deleted] »

amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

[deleted]

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#54

Post by SolaceQuantum »

zajio1am wrote: post #33
danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

> Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. What does raising children have to do with society? Decision of having and raising a child is a fundamentally personal, not societal decision. Each pair should decide how they want to split responsibilities of raising a child before its conception, based on their preferences, and society should not force them to any model. Also, it seems…

> What does raising children have to do with society

I'm sorry? Maybe the continuation of society?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#55

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

blub wrote: post #45
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #32

>> I’ve got a big scholarship, and a lot of people supporting me to give me the best shot at an academic career — a career I dearly want. But, I also want a family — maybe two or three kids Oh. Up to this point I was keeping notes with my criticism of this article, but this caused me to stop and reconsider. If I may advise the author, I understand how difficult it is to balance life decisions that seem to be at odds,…

Yes, nature and sexual selection were sexist and designed women so that they have to bear the brunt of having children. That's reality, I don't see how it helps in any way to call reality sexist. And having a career is not the most awesome thing in the world. Many fathers would very much prefer to spend time with their families, but can't because they're expected to first and foremost provide for them.

Nature and sexual selection have nothing to do with it. A complete lack of societal support for women who want to have children and maintain a career in STEM academia (or similar) is all there is to it.

>> Many fathers would very much prefer to spend time with their families, but can't because they're expected to first and foremost provide for them.

Why do the fathers "have to provide"? Why is it so difficult for a man to stay at home and take care of the kids, after they're born (which he can obviously not really do)? Is that nature, again?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#56

Post by trynewideas »

This is a good model for why women capable of or wanting to have children leave but won't do much to explain anything to women aren't capable of having children, or who don't want children, and still can't break past middle management into product/exec/C-suite roles over younger, less qualified men.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#58

Post by darawk »

clairity wrote: post #44
darawk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. You seem to be making a fairly subtle point here that I think others might be missing. Which is not that women choosing to take on the burden of childcare represents sexism (which is an argument some people make), but rather that the fact that their making this choice impinges upon their personal economic future is se…

to compare it to playing video games all day is (unwittingly?) falling prey to the very systemic sexism you're trying to fathom--that "women's work" such as childcare is not "work"--that it's economically unproductive and should be "free".

No, that was not the point of my analogy. Whether it is work or not is irrelevant. When I clean my home, that is work, but nobody pays me to do it. I do the work because I receive the benefit of that work. People care for their children for the same reason. And many (most?) couples consider the income of the breadwinner to be shared between the two of them for precisely this reason: Because the couple values the childcare that the childcare-r provides.

I'm not arguing that childcare isn't valuable. I am arguing that it isn't valuable to any employer of the person doing the childcare, and as such, they shouldn't pay for it.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#59

Post by tathougies »

danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

Have you considered that the primary enforcer of this curtailment is not adults but infants? I mean, I took long paternity leave, I am with my daughter at night, and am with her whenever I am home. She still wants to nurse on her mothers breast when she's sick or in pain. This makes sense as not only is it comforting to her (and a childs emotional need is very real) but it is also physiologically beneficial (nursing reduces stress hormones and helps her heal from disease faster). She enforces this dichotomy of roles by screaming if i try to comfort her and shes already decided what she wants by screaming mama. She'll take comfort from me only if shes decided that its something that doesnt require something no man can give. And her cry is meant to change both of our emotional states to fulfill her every desire.

Is this injustice? Perhaps you could characterize it this way, but since the perpetrator is beyond reason and lacks expression, I'm not sure how youre going to fix this.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#60

Post by tharne »

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improve working conditions.

Unlike lower-skilled workers, the kind of person who even has the opportunity to get a PhD is also likely to have other good opportunities should they choose to take them. Academics should improve their lot and that of others by voting with their feet.

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