Live data from Hacker News

Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

jalopnik.com

31–40 of 63 posts

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#31
post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

You say that, but phone phreaking was possible because of in-band signaling. People back in the day had much the same tradeoffs we did; by necessity, they just came down on the side of less security / less portability / less reusability.

I wanted to echo this.

NASA would not have used this technique of they had today's signal proccessing/bandwidth/resources. They used these clever tricks because that was the only option.

These clever tricks have major downsides. They are more fragile and easier to get wrong. Just like code today, the most clever code is often the least maintainable.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#32
post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

> It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today.

Naw. We just use our ingenuity to solve higher level problems. Or more precisely use it to solve the “actual problem” trying to be solved and not incidental problems caused by not being able to work at the right level of abstraction.

Mumble mumble Mythical Man Month and “no silver bullet”. There will always be the “real problem” to solve. It is just over time our level of tooling will let us focus more and more on solving the problem itself instead of tooling problems...

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#33
post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

I mean, this is not particularly clever or creative. It's just a really straightforward solution to a simple problem.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#34
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inband signalling was the way long distance trunk lines worked back in the MF signalling days decades before ISDN D channels and SS7 and all that. A fun topic to google for is what and how the 2600 Hz signal worked.

Didnt some guy figure out how to get free phone calls using a cheap whistle from a cereal box :-)

The book "Exploding The Phone" goes into all of these stories and much more. If you ever wanted to know about how and why the analog phone system was so hackable/phreakable, this book is for you.

[0] http://explodingthephone.com/

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#35
post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

Modern EE is full of clever tricks like this, just a lot less about cost because it's marginal but for very subtle things like DFM, reliability, etc... Just look at a mass manufactured board like from Apple or Samsung. Shit is fucking whack, yo.

When I first started getting into Arduino type systems, I was concerned about the limited number of inputs. After studying other designs, I saw a simple method of making each pin capable of accepting multiple inputs. Each input had a different resistor attached so that the voltage from each input/button was unique on that pin. Very simple/basic solution, but still creatively done nonetheless.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#36
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inband vs out-of-band signalling is one of those great debates in telecoms. You can see it in RS232 as well, with "XON/XOFF" characters versus "RTS/CTS" extra signalling lines. Most internet protocols are "in-band", but there are two big exceptions in FTP and SIP, which is very much an internet protocol designed by phone people.

> SIP, which is very much an internet protocol designed by phone people. Allegedly SIP is much better than the ITU's H.32x standards, and if that is true, then H.32X has to be an unspeakable horror.

SIP is only a speakable horror when you have RTP payload types in common, note. (-:

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#37
post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

The creativity and cleverness is still there. It's just being applied differently.

That kind of insight is very "clean" when it's being applied at the level of bare wires, or to code crammed into tens of bytes. It's harder to see when it's part of a large app or extensive system, but it's still there.

Developers today are neither more nor less clever. The solutions they come up with every day are just less broadly applicable, because the broadly applicable ones are either low-hanging fruit long since picked, or unnecessary drains of developer time that are better spent solving more domain-specific problems. Forty years ago I'd admire a programmer who could cleverly eke out a few bytes per record, but today (in most circumstances) I'd fire them for making their code less flexible and harder to maintain.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#38
post #28
post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

I agree that it seems like engineers of the past were more clever than us today, but I suspect that we feel that way only because a lot of the garbage systems and code have been lost to time. The good stuff gets immortalized and passed down, while the bad stuff isn't, much in the same way that nobody will see my hacky Python scripts in 30 years (with any luck). It's a selection bias. See also people who are convinced…

> much in the same way that nobody will see my hacky Python scripts in 30 years (with any luck)

LOTS of us have seen legacy systems long outlast their intended lifespan. I've seen this in enterprise settings, web development, small business, etc... I've got multiple custom web solutions (niche industry product catalogs) I developed in my early 20's that are still going strong 10-15 years later. The code behind them is dated and god awful, but if/when you talk to the client it's the "don't fix what's not broken" mentality.

Due to this experience I've learned to document the hell out of my projects because of really positive feedback from developers who have had to support/modify my work down-the-road. Docs can be a lifesaver in a less-than-ideal situation.

Just sharing my anecdotal experience of "holy cow that's STILL LIVE?!" and, "here's a DB2 mess from the late 80's ... figure it out kid." =)

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#39
A somewhat similar system used in modern radio systems (well, radio systems that are now outdated, but still in widespread use) is two-tone sequential paging or the related QuikCall. These are in-band audio tones used to cause some receivers to open squelch as a form of selective calling.

The method is predominantly used in public safety radio systems, where tone paging may be used to cause a fixed receiver in a station to open squelch (triggering an alarm) or cause a portable paging receiver (like a Motorola Minitor) to open squelch as a simple form of paging. Rural VFDs often rely on the latter to call out volunteers.

Anyway, the world of in-band signaling in voice communications is really pretty interesting, and while digital systems have reduced the need for in-band there are still a lot of real-world systems that rely on it for compatibility with legacy equipment. The telephone system has largely moved on (except for various niche uses of DTMF) but in-band signaling is still pretty common in radio systems, where upgrading to a digital system is high cost and comes with its own limitations.

Another example off-hand: most large-area public address systems, the type of thing the military often calls Giant Voice and might be used for tornado warning in some areas, use either DTMF or SelCall (five-tone) on the control radio channel (which in many cases is the same radio system used by public safety portable radios) to cause the loudspeakers to activate. A particular oddity of a lot of these systems is that they have different generations of receivers that use different methods, so sometimes you'll end up hearing the tones played aloud if a receiver opens squelch in reaction to something earlier in the sequence.

And a last example, also usually seen in public safety - some radio schemes like MDC transmit a burst that sounds like a roger beep whenever the PTT is released, but is actually a short data packet that identifies the transmitting radio. This allows a specially equipped base station to show e.g. a dispatcher who was just transmitting. Sometimes the same signaling system is used to implement other features like 'man down' detection where a radio signals if it is not upright or has not moved for a period of time (common safety feature in fire departments), but sometimes these kinds of systems also just use a sample-based speech synthesizer if there's no digital system already in use.

Oh, I can't resist one more. The "buzz," repeated three times, which proceeds emergency alert messages in the US is actually a short data packet which gives certain metadata about the alert and causes hardware in receiving radio stations (the system operates a bit like a "calling tree") to cut out the program audio and switch over the received alert. The two-tone beep which follows is a legacy system for the same purpose, although today no such receivers should still be in use. It's amusing that many phones use that two-tone signal as their ringtone for emergency alerts considering how divorced that is from its original purpose, but it's quite recognizable. Emergency alert messages should be followed by a three shorter data bursts which inform receivers that the alert is over. A closely related scheme is used by NOAA All-Hazards Radio to cause dedicated "weather emergency" receivers in people's homes to open squelch, these are more common in tornado-prone areas but generally work throughout the US. As the name suggests, All-Hazards also retransmits alerts from agencies other than NOAA including emergency alert system messages.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#40
post #25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Roger beeps" - a type of squelch tones - control intermediate equipment too, like amateur radio repeaters. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squelch#Uses

The article mostly talks about CTCSS/DCS, which really are tones intended to control equipment, but these are mostly designed to not be audible (both CTCSS and DCS is sent during the whole transmission on frequencies below the voice pass band). Roger beep is a tone that is generated by the transmitting station when user lets go of the PTT (in similar way to Quindar outro tone). Using this tone to control anything in…

Yes, CTCSS/DCS is a control tone. Definitely. The first HT I had had a CTCSS board added to it, and could only be set for a single tone! Things have changed since then.

I've always thought that the beeps at the end of a user-initiated (not repeater) transmission would be cool, but they are indeed frowned upon. They aren't necessary, anyway. I'm sure if they became necessary for any reason, hams would be on the cutting edge.

Interestingly a digital mode called JS8Call uses framed transmissions, linked together, to send text over HF. At the end of a frame set, an ascii diamond is transmitted to signify EOL. Otherwise the receiving station doesn't know if they are done, or if they dropped a frame, or what. Not audible of course.

Post reply on HN