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Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

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Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#21

Post by squarefoot »

bilekas wrote: post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

"It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today."

We still use the same system today: most ham radio repeaters are triggered (and can be remotely configured by the owners) through audio tones; also most license free radios implement subtone codes (ctcss) to trigger the audio output when a radio with the same code is transmitting. The idea is that people wanting to talk each other use the same code so that they won't listen to transmissions by others. The system works as intended but is flawed by giving a false sense of privacy when users think others won't be able to listen to their conversations just because they use that code, which is false as there is no proteciton at all: the code is merely used on the receiver to voluntarily squelch off the audio when the same code isn't provided by the transmitter, but anyone with a receiver not using codes can listen to them.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#22

Post by pjc50 »

bilekas wrote: post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

Inband vs out-of-band signalling is one of those great debates in telecoms. You can see it in RS232 as well, with "XON/XOFF" characters versus "RTS/CTS" extra signalling lines.

Most internet protocols are "in-band", but there are two big exceptions in FTP and SIP, which is very much an internet protocol designed by phone people.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#23

Post by biggieshellz »

bilekas wrote: post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

You say that, but phone phreaking was possible because of in-band signaling. People back in the day had much the same tradeoffs we did; by necessity, they just came down on the side of less security / less portability / less reusability.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#24

Post by oldandcold »

I've always enjoyed these beeps...to me, for technical radio comms, they lend a sense of "tightness" or maybe even "seriousness" that normal comms don't have. Control purposes aside, I just love them. And until now, I had no idea they were different frequencies...now that I know this, I can tell.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#25

Post by dfox »

ovi256 wrote: post #20
dfox wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the purpose is different. Quindar tones are intended to control intermediate equipment, while roger beep is meant as replacement for user saing "over" at the end of transmission.

"Roger beeps" - a type of squelch tones - control intermediate equipment too, like amateur radio repeaters. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squelch#Uses

The article mostly talks about CTCSS/DCS, which really are tones intended to control equipment, but these are mostly designed to not be audible (both CTCSS and DCS is sent during the whole transmission on frequencies below the voice pass band).

Roger beep is a tone that is generated by the transmitting station when user lets go of the PTT (in similar way to Quindar outro tone). Using this tone to control anything in CB/HAM context is not really possible because there is essentially no standardization of how the beep sounds. Also IIRC having roger beep turned on is mostly frowned upon on ham bands.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#26

Post by blattimwind »

pjc50 wrote: post #22
bilekas wrote: post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

Inband vs out-of-band signalling is one of those great debates in telecoms. You can see it in RS232 as well, with "XON/XOFF" characters versus "RTS/CTS" extra signalling lines. Most internet protocols are "in-band", but there are two big exceptions in FTP and SIP, which is very much an internet protocol designed by phone people.

> SIP, which is very much an internet protocol designed by phone people.

Allegedly SIP is much better than the ITU's H.32x standards, and if that is true, then H.32X has to be an unspeakable horror.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#27

Post by hatsunearu »

bilekas wrote: post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

Modern EE is full of clever tricks like this, just a lot less about cost because it's marginal but for very subtle things like DFM, reliability, etc... Just look at a mass manufactured board like from Apple or Samsung. Shit is fucking whack, yo.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#28

Post by bmgxyz »

bilekas wrote: post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

I agree that it seems like engineers of the past were more clever than us today, but I suspect that we feel that way only because a lot of the garbage systems and code have been lost to time. The good stuff gets immortalized and passed down, while the bad stuff isn't, much in the same way that nobody will see my hacky Python scripts in 30 years (with any luck). It's a selection bias.

See also people who are convinced they were born in the wrong time period. Much more annoying that you or me, I'd say, but the same principle nonetheless.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#29

Post by jagged-chisel »

bilekas wrote: post #7

> if NASA wanted to send control signals like transmit on and off, they’d need to run a whole parallel set of wires, which would be expensive. So, they came up with a solution: use the same lines for control signals as well! It really seems that in earlier years, when resources were limited, people really used their ingenuity far better than today. Maybe I have rose tinted glasses, but the level of creativity and cle…

This is the way the telephone system worked while eliminating human switchboard operators. In-band signaling is what allowed the phreaks of the 60s and 70s to do what they did.

Re: Quindar Tones: the beeps heard in recordings of astronauts in space

#30

Post by creeble »

dfox wrote: post #25
ovi256 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Roger beeps" - a type of squelch tones - control intermediate equipment too, like amateur radio repeaters. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squelch#Uses

The article mostly talks about CTCSS/DCS, which really are tones intended to control equipment, but these are mostly designed to not be audible (both CTCSS and DCS is sent during the whole transmission on frequencies below the voice pass band). Roger beep is a tone that is generated by the transmitting station when user lets go of the PTT (in similar way to Quindar outro tone). Using this tone to control anything in…

>Also IIRC having roger beep turned on is mostly frowned upon on ham bands.

Except the Roger beep coming from the repeater, which is semi-important in that it denotes that the repeater has unlatched and the transmit timer is reset.

If a repeater user keys up before hearing the Roger beep, the repeater doesn't restart the transmit timer, so there is a chance that your transmission will time out.

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