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Offshoring: does it ever work?

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Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#31

Post by tel »

raganwald wrote: post #30
yters wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do I hire you guys?

Wanted: American Ex-Pat and Canadian software developers with a passion for changing the world. Are you self-motivated and fascinated by the idea of applying nano-statistical modelling to the problem of online dating game mechanics? Are you interested in remote work? If so, send us your github profile and we'll be in touch.

Because I honestly can't tell how serious statements like that are anymore, even with significant amounts of context, what the hell does "nano-statistical" mean?

(because improving dating websites by better statistics seems like a good first step on one of my world takeover plans)

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#32

Post by rbranson »

raganwald wrote: post #17

Blatant plug: What you want is near -shoring. Canadian development shops and remote Canadian developers are like "Mexicans with sweaters." Lower cost-of-living, we have our family's health care taken care of while we work on your start-up, and our subsidized universities churn out a steady stream of new grads. Add in the fact that we speak English (even if our spelling has idiosyncrasies like "cheque," "colour," and…

By this logic, you might as well hire people in less expensive parts of the US and avoid the (small, but existant) cross-border business issues. Also, Vancouver and Toronto aren't particularly low cost-of-living cities. Chicago, Portland, Seattle, Austin, and Raleigh are all cheaper.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#33

Post by raganwald »

rbranson wrote: post #32
raganwald wrote: post #17

Blatant plug: What you want is near -shoring. Canadian development shops and remote Canadian developers are like "Mexicans with sweaters." Lower cost-of-living, we have our family's health care taken care of while we work on your start-up, and our subsidized universities churn out a steady stream of new grads. Add in the fact that we speak English (even if our spelling has idiosyncrasies like "cheque," "colour," and…

By this logic, you might as well hire people in less expensive parts of the US and avoid the (small, but existant) cross-border business issues. Also, Vancouver and Toronto aren't particularly low cost-of-living cities. Chicago, Portland, Seattle, Austin, and Raleigh are all cheaper.

Let's not fall into the trap of arguing on the basis of a false dichotomy. If you can find talent in Chicago, Portland, Seattle, Austin, and Raleigh, you ought to hire them. If you can find talent in Toronto and Vancouver, you ought to hire us too.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#34

Post by raganwald »

tel wrote: post #31
raganwald wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanted: American Ex-Pat and Canadian software developers with a passion for changing the world. Are you self-motivated and fascinated by the idea of applying nano-statistical modelling to the problem of online dating game mechanics? Are you interested in remote work? If so, send us your github profile and we'll be in touch.

Because I honestly can't tell how serious statements like that are anymore, even with significant amounts of context, what the hell does "nano-statistical" mean? (because improving dating websites by better statistics seems like a good first step on one of my world takeover plans)

The exact wording was meant as a joke! The meta-message is, just start asking. Tell the world what you're doing and make it clear that you're open to talking to remote workers with North American roots. The rest will follow.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#35

Post by hkarthik »

You should only offshore a mature product that's past its prime and just needs maintenance programmers to keep it alive and prevent it from blowing up. Any code changes will be bug fixes only and you won't be enhancing this product much.

For such products, the controls to keep bad code from getting release should have been put in place long before the teams were offshored.

When you're building a startup, your product won't resemble a product that is ready for offshoring. You'll be constantly iterating, rebuilding deployment infrastructure, and will need to respond quickly in case of catastrophic failure.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#36

Post by marquis »

I've had extremely good experience 'offshoring', but I have one criteria: we meet in person and I spend time with them in their own environment so I understand what challenges are to be faced.

Also, it has to be said: constant communication. It won't work without constant communication, preferably in real-time (email is good for specs and bugs but IM/voice is the only way to make sure you are on the same page). I wouldn't recommend offshoring if saving money is your primary goal - good, long-term work comes from being invested in the project financially.

Additionally it helps that we consider ourselves friends. We get on, to the level of being able to go out for a drink with each other and keep updated about our personal lives. Even just asking about the local weather is an important indicator that you recognize each other as people. I met with the people I wanted to work with and established strong relationships over time. I continue to work with them as we're all invested and familiar with the tech at hand.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#37

Post by didip »

maguay wrote: post #19
raganwald wrote: post #17

Blatant plug: What you want is near -shoring. Canadian development shops and remote Canadian developers are like "Mexicans with sweaters." Lower cost-of-living, we have our family's health care taken care of while we work on your start-up, and our subsidized universities churn out a steady stream of new grads. Add in the fact that we speak English (even if our spelling has idiosyncrasies like "cheque," "colour," and…

Another plug: Americans living overseas. There's a ton of us, and we speak English, have US bank accounts, and understand American culture. We're also likely to be back in the US every so often...

Another plug: Oregon programmers. We have strong open source tech culture and programming talents are everywhere, comparable to SF area. But our living expenses are drastically cheaper.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#38

Post by statictype »

It does work. More than you think.

The companies that are successful in outsourcing are not looking to get high quality software done cheap. They're looking for someone to take the burden of the whole process of developing software from the ground up from their basic (but vast and hairy) requirements.

This means, having a system in place to make sure every requirement that was specified was tracked and accounted for from some functional specification document right through the final UI pages and test cases. It means having a system in place so that when QA discovers that requirement 4.3.1 doesn't have any test cases specified, they know exactly who was in charge of that and how it slipped through.

Boring and insipid? Yes. That's exactly why they're successful.

The successful outsourcing companies excel at this type of thing. That's why it's important that they get ISO certified and CMM Level-whatever. Those achievements are not there to fool customers into thinking it will result in better software. It's there to tell the customer that we have a process and mechanism in place for dealing with your complex requirements.

All the offshoring failures come from doing a quick calculation of your developer's time vs the time of a developer in India and then thinking you're saving money by offloading the work.

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#39

Post by maguay »

yters wrote: post #27
maguay wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another plug: Americans living overseas. There's a ton of us, and we speak English, have US bank accounts, and understand American culture. We're also likely to be back in the US every so often...

How do I hire you guys?

Look for email address in HN profile ;)

Seriously, though, in my case I'm currently a non-dev though I would like to be. I'm a college student (online...) and a freelance writer that does some web dev too. I think remote work has potential, but today most companies only want remote freelancers, not full employees...

Re: Offshoring: does it ever work?

#40

Post by xutopia »

raganwald wrote: post #17

Blatant plug: What you want is near -shoring. Canadian development shops and remote Canadian developers are like "Mexicans with sweaters." Lower cost-of-living, we have our family's health care taken care of while we work on your start-up, and our subsidized universities churn out a steady stream of new grads. Add in the fact that we speak English (even if our spelling has idiosyncrasies like "cheque," "colour," and…

You forgot Montreal! Shame on you! :-P
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