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What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

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Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#141

Post by rahimnathwani »

chii wrote: post #120
chowells wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the US, tips are not for service quality, they're to boost your server's pay up somewhat closer to a living wage. Obviously they should be banned along with the practice of adding taxes and fees on top of listed prices, but the consumer protection lobby just doesn't have that sort of power. They're lucky to slow down the removal of customer protections these days.

> they're to boost your server's pay up somewhat closer to a living wage. and by doing this, you're just perpetuating the problem. If the base pay is too low, the worker _needs_ to quit, but if you force yourself to tip just enough to string them along, you're only kicking the can down the road. Edit: to clarify, the tip isn't included in the sticker price of the meal/service. Therefore, a business is indirectly mis-…

"the true price is hidden until after you're already completed the meal, and too late to refuse the tip"

This is only true for the first time you buy a meal in the US. After that first experience, you know the tipping etiquette. So, at the time you peruse the menu, you can factor in the tip you expect to leave at the end of the meal.

However, where the real price is hidden is in establishments which add a surcharge labelled 'SF Health' or similar to the bill. This is sneaky because:

i) Unlike sales tax, the SF health mandate is not a consumption tax. It's just a regulation that specifies the minimum an employer must contribute to employees' healthcare costs. It's just like any other business cost, like cooking oil or lightbulbs.

ii) some businesses declare the amount they will charge on the menu, but usually in small writing (the most egregious example I've seen is yellow text on a white background, on a sign near other random promotional signs at the cash register)

- some businesses don't tell you about it at all. I bought some burgers (which were yummy) and paid by card. I had no opportunity to see the itemised bill on the POS machine, but paid anyway because the total was in the range I expected. Only when I received the email receipt moments later did I discover the extra charge.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#142

Post by [deleted] »

marcell wrote: post #30

> “These orders don’t pay for our expenses or our time. We actually lose money when we take those orders. If I pick up an order that is 10 miles away and deliver it 6 miles I’m traveling 16 miles for a $3 order — so I have lost money. I’m in the negative when I account for gas, wear and tear, and other expenses. Not to mention my time.” This begs an obvious question: why are people choosing to do this if it pays $0/h…

[deleted]

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#143

Post by MuffinFlavored »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #124
marcell wrote: post #30

> “These orders don’t pay for our expenses or our time. We actually lose money when we take those orders. If I pick up an order that is 10 miles away and deliver it 6 miles I’m traveling 16 miles for a $3 order — so I have lost money. I’m in the negative when I account for gas, wear and tear, and other expenses. Not to mention my time.” This begs an obvious question: why are people choosing to do this if it pays $0/h…

"why are people choosing to do this if it pays $0/hr?" The article explains this: "the DoorDash pay model appears aimed at having workers deliver food effectively for free in hopes of collecting tips."

does it say what that equates to in terms of net income per hour when it is all said and done?

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#144

Post by bigwavedave »

jlarocco wrote: post #68
Can_Not wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bike commute for me would be a minimum of 2 hours (twice a day) and I'm almost at the years of experience the vast majority of remote jobs start at (which isn't a small number like 2), so you could say I "have to".

Well, apparently there's something more important to you than moving closer to work. That's your choice.

> That's your choice.

Yep, it's totally someone's choice to live in a neighborhood with affordable housing as opposed to a mansion across the street from their place of employment. Gee, looks like we both know how to make irrational overgeneralizations.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#145

Post by rahimnathwani »

swozey wrote: post #49
tempsy wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no it appears they are working way more. Anytime I go to a place that does heavy app delivery I remark to myself how much more frenetic all the workers seem now. I mean it was only in last 3 years this has become as widespread as it is now. It’s actually a bit depressing.

The Popeyes by me has a 25 or so minute drive thru line, I've gone twice for some reason recently. I watch as people wait in line, eventually park and walk to the door and realize the doors are locked. They don't even have patrons inside the restaurant. I never considered it being due to deliveries. Both times I went was during rain and right after work. The chicken sandwich drama is over. Those workers are slammed,…

"The chicken sandwich drama is over."

I had Popeye's for the first time one afternoon last week. There was a handwritten sign in the window saying they'd run out of chicken sandwiches for the day :(

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#146

Post by JackFr »

pbreit wrote: post #100
BurningFrog wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This begs an obvious question: why are people choosing to do this if it pays $0/hr? The obvious answer is that it actually pays more.

Not necessarily. I think it’s a combination of easy money and lack of understanding of net income.

When you have no money net income is pretty damn obvious. I'd argue instead that they're actually pretty rational.

The job requires no training and is untaxing both physically and mentally. Despite driver complaints, it's much more flexible than the vast majority of unskilled jobs. I'm sure for most long term drivers, the job basically sucks -- but it's still better than their next best alternative.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#147

Post by bigwavedave »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #116
darkwizard42 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The driver can see this breakdown on every ride and on their weekly statements already. Why would the customer need to know this information?

> Why would the customer need to know this information? If a line item says "tip," it's paid on the assumption it's going to the staff. If it said "management keeps this," I wouldn't tip as much (or at all).

Precisely. This is why I tip $0 on the app and simply tip in cash when my food arrives.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#148

Post by zeroonetwothree »

cc439 wrote: post #83
burlesona wrote: post #67

What I struggle with is why anyone would deliver for Door Dash if the pay is so bad. The article closes with a statement that they want $15/hour plus expenses for drivers. The obvious problem is that I can’t see customers paying that much for delivery - ie. at those wages Door Dash can’t exist. The fact that people choose to do the work makes me think there are people who find it worthwhile, and I can explain a few s…

"The obvious problem is that I can’t see customers paying that much for delivery - ie. at those wages Door Dash can’t exist." I am 100% ok with DoorDash and that entire market not existing. We somehow managed without it just 3-4 years ago and it's not like Americans need another ridiculously unhealthy eating option provided with even greater convenience.

I first used GrubHub 8 years ago...

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#149

Post by rahimnathwani »

filmgirlcw wrote: post #118
zamfi wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m just talking about the stuff that shows up literally when I check out using doordash. doordash knows about them, obviously, because it’s showing them to me as line items. Hypothetical increased prices from the restaurant are a whole extra layer!

Oh, restaurants totally change prices based on eating in or delivery. Often, places will have different prices in different apps too — depending on what the costs are for them. I’ve literally played arbitrage between Seamless, DoorDash, Postmates, and a restaurant’s own website before to find the lowest price because the price was different everywhere. There are also places that won’t list in an app but will have del…

"I’ve literally played arbitrage between Seamless, DoorDash, Postmates, and a restaurant’s own website"

If you bought food on the cheaper platform, and tried to make a profit by selling it for more on another platform, then you would have 'literally played arbitrage'.

It's the same as when you buy an item from an online retailer, that is shipped directly from the manufacturer (e.g. a large ClosetMaid kit). The price at Amazon and Home Depot might be different, even though the same company is supplying and delivering the item to your home.

Re: What DoorDash pays, after expenses, and what’s happening with tips

#150

Post by ravenstine »

marcell wrote: post #30

> “These orders don’t pay for our expenses or our time. We actually lose money when we take those orders. If I pick up an order that is 10 miles away and deliver it 6 miles I’m traveling 16 miles for a $3 order — so I have lost money. I’m in the negative when I account for gas, wear and tear, and other expenses. Not to mention my time.” This begs an obvious question: why are people choosing to do this if it pays $0/h…

Not all orders are like that, but a lot can be, and it depends on the region.

I worked GrubHub back in 2018 when I was between jobs(took some time off to do side projects and did deliveries to make ends meet). These apps play this psychological game on you where you have to accept something like 95% of orders in order to get more quantity and quality(supposedly), so some people are desperate to take all the shitty no-tip orders just so they have a shot at getting better ones.

The funny thing was the lowest acceptance rate I had was 3%, and that's because I hung around a rich area of town and waited for those sweet $20-$50 orders that were only a few miles distance. Always felt like I got the golden ticket. I never got fired for having that low of an acceptance rate.

There were some fellow drivers I talked to on Reddit that got kind of a bad deal. They would drive for GrubHub or DoorDash at a town in Podunk, Nowhere with low demand and would often get sent those kind of orders that were 10+ miles away for $3. If that happens to be the demand, then you're either screwed taking bad orders or you're screwed if you reject too many of them and you get fired.

I think the reason I never got fired is because the LA area, at least while I was doing it, was hot(figuratively) and GrubHub just wanted to fill up the market with as many drivers as possible. In areas where they've fully met the demand, then your arse can be on the line if you reject too many orders.

Overall, it was a fun job to have for a while. But it would suck big-time if I had to actually do it for a living. Thank god I'm good enough at software engineering.

EDIT: Saw lots of hilarious things happen while I was on the job. It's amazing how many women order food while they're taking a bath and then either forget to answer their phone or they come to the door wrapped in towels. WTF! I once delivered a 2 dozen donuts to this one guy at ~10:30pm who was super high accidentally walked into the door before opening it. Also had some sad moments, like those times I delivered to an elder hospice. This one sick old lady wanted to give me a handsome tip, but I didn't want to accept it because I just felt like she deserved that ice cream in her condition and was just happy I brought it to her. But she insisted because she said it might be her last ice cream. :(

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