The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development • Hacker News Board

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#171

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 2:40 AM UTC

kochikame wrote: post #158

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a bad thing? You can still write in Chinese with an IME, and most uses are on some sort of phone or computer anyways. 27 year old me learned how to text in Chinese but skipped learning the muscle memory to write characters, first I'm left handed so stroke order was bizarrely awkward anyways, but also...it just didn't feel important anymore.

If you live in a Chinese-speaking country then, yes, it's a bad thing. There are plenty of situations in which you still have to write; at the post office, applying for things, hospitals, places like that. Maybe not every day, I'll grant you that, but you are going to hit barriers when required to write your address or apply for a driving license or similar. You don't want to be the guy painstakingly copying characte…

I lived in Beijing for 9 years and it didn't seem to be a problem. Yes, I occasionally had to really write something in Chinese (e.g. at the bank when making an account changed), but my hand was basically held while writing it. The post office and hospital never required me to write in Chinese.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#172

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 2:43 AM UTC

mrr54 wrote: post #165

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - spellcheck is always on, why learn real spelling when the computer fixes it for you? Why is this a problem? Augmented spelling isn't bad, and you still have to know the differences between similar correctly spelt words. Learning Chinese, I de-empahsized writing them by hand and being able to write them on computer instead, you still need to know about them, what they look like and how they sound, but the muscle m…

I don't see how your hand occludes what you're writing. It occludes what you've already written. But you've already written that bit, and you can move your hand if you really need to see it. Maybe we should go back to what the Ancient Egyptians did and allow people to write in whatever direction they like!

It includes what you have written and much of what you are writing, you are basically writing your character blind. Writing in straight lines is especially problematic on whiteboards (which these days is an interviewing handicap).

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#173

Post by TheOperator » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 2:51 AM UTC

>Among the jobs most likely to be automated out of existence are those whose functions are the most similar to computers, including jobs like computer systems administrators, network architects, and computer support specialists, 60–70 percent of whose functions could be automated using current technology.

>Even the brainiest are not safe. In the finance industry, in recent years, we have seen the development of machine learning tools that can perform in minutes the same analysis for which a human computer science major required hours or even days. You can guess which of those resources was less expensive to retain.

EDIT: I'll note that the article cited to support the second point “The Future of Employment: How Susceptible are Jobs to Computerisation" doesn't acutally refer to "Computer science majors". It lists programmers having a moderate (not high!) chance of automation... and also lists system administrators as having amongst the least automatable jobs of all. Then to support the point that system administrators would have their jobs automated a different paper was cited. I'm not sure how seriously I can take the author with such clear evidence of contradicting the articles it cited and cherry picking evidence to apparently support a point the author had in mind before these papers were ever read. Bluntly the article smacks of outright dishonesty obscured by citing a huge number of lengthy research papers...

Not sure if I buy this take. I received a laptop in school and back then this exact analysis was true and indeed the jobs of administrators, network architects, and computer support administrators was largely automated. So those jobs are far less prevalent than in my childhood right?

Except that's not what happened and the jobs became more prevalent as improved automation made computers cheaper and more useful. I'm not holding my breath over the imminent collapse of jobs involving computers simply because the current work can be automated by... people using computers. Sure this argument is undeniably true if you think computing will stay exactly like it is now except the current jobs will be automated and no new jobs will be created.

My crystal ball is as foggy as anybody elses though. Maybe we will hit the singularity and in that case computing jobs will likely be the very first to be completely replaced.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#174

Post by jdshaffer » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 2:52 AM UTC

griffinkelly wrote: post #14

plughs wrote: post #8

Our elementary school uses chromebooks from 1st grade on, and I do see a lot of downsides. The most outrageous problem, IMO, is that there are 'modules' that must be completed, and kids with computer access at home can work on them at home. Kids from low income families are screwed over - again. Other problems - spellcheck is always on, why learn real spelling when the computer fixes it for you? - The de-emphasis on…

In Japan they don't use any computers etc until a much older age in school; interestingly much of that stems from a worry of hindering a student's ability to write kanji.

Hi there! Unfortunately (or fortunately), they DO use computers in schools in Japan now. Albeit not like handing out Chromebooks, but there is computer classes and computer time. In Middle school, I believe there is a small push to use iPads and the like on occasion.

So, there is SOME use, but not like a Chromebook for everyone (Thank heavens!)

-- JD in JP

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#175

Post by mcqueenjordan » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 2:55 AM UTC

mrr54 wrote: post #151

jacobolus wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of excellent inspiring youtube content (including well presented secondary and undergraduate level math and physics lectures) buried in mountains of dreck. People can learn all sorts of useful things from youtube, but they can also easily waste huge amounts of time, become radicalized by extremists, ....

I'm not saying it can't be inspiring. I'm sure youtube videos about mathematics have inspired quite a few young people to pursue mathematics! They can foster an interest, inspire people to learn, etc. But that doesn't make them educational.

A video recording of the MIT OCW courses is absolutely educational.

Many science/technology focused YouTube channels absolutely produce educational content.

You don't need to receive a title or a credential to have received education.

I'm deeply sorry that you've struggled with bad things you saw on the internet. That can be a compelling reason to limit access. But that doesn't redefine education.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#176

Post by wisty » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 2:55 AM UTC

8bitsrule wrote: post #78

nickbauman wrote: post #70

Most teachers believe that education is supposed to: 1) To make good people. 2) To make good citizens. 3) To make each person his or her personal best. But our public school system as envisioned by its creator (Alexander Inglis) in the early 20th century was to simply to reduce as many individuals as much as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry and establish fixed habits of rea…

Yep. Educators refer to this as the 'Factory model of education'. Imported from Northern Europe in the late 1800s with heavy influence from industrial Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_model_school In the case of such schools (for the unwashed masses, of course), the medium is definitely the message. Uptight. Neat rows of assigned seating in non-nonsense, screwed-down desks with steel frames and hardwood…

As Wikipedia notes, this is kind of just a myth - http://hackeducation.com/2015/04/25/factory-model

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#177

Post by pier25 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 3:05 AM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #124

pier25 wrote: post #110

It totally is. I worked in EdTech for the past 4 years and was in contact with the education world. Digital devices are harmful to younger kids. The brain develops much better when using fine motor skills such as writing with pen and paper. France banned all digital devices in primary schools for a reason and all countries should do it. The most important factor in getting quality education are not digital devices or…

>The most important factor in getting quality education are not digital devices or educational material but the quality of the teacher. I agree with you in general, but I think the most important factor in getting quality education is parents that value education.

Indeed. You'd be surprised most parents do not put the quality of education at the top when choosing a school. At least not in the market I was working on (private schools in Mexico).

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#178

Post by mrr54 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 3:14 AM UTC

daxfohl wrote: post #169

mrr54 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these 'common core math' techniques? I went to primary school in New Zealand. In around 2005 they introduced a new way of teaching mathematics that we referred to as the 'numeracy programme'. It wasn't very popular with students and parents obviously all thought it was crap because parents are naturally scared of change in education negatively affecting their kids. But when we actually did it, it was basical…

> if I'm adding 47 to 54, I can simplify that by instead adding 50 (47 + 3) to 57 (54 + 3), which is 107 47+53=107??? Haha, okay I get it, it was a slip. But it's kind of the point from my perspective. All these different techniques of moving stuff around seems fraught with ways to misunderstand it or muck it up. At best they should be supplementary skills, and shouldn't be taught as the primary techniques. Per Commo…

>47+53=107???

>Haha, okay I get it, it was a slip.

Yikes that's embarrassing. Yeah 47 + 3 to 54 - 3 obviously. Of course I brainfart exactly there. Should note that you messed up too: I said 47 + 54, not 47 + 53. :D

> At best they should be supplementary skills, and shouldn't be taught as the primary techniques

Absolutely 100% agree.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#179

Post by Gunax » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 3:26 AM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #91

plughs wrote: post #8

Our elementary school uses chromebooks from 1st grade on, and I do see a lot of downsides. The most outrageous problem, IMO, is that there are 'modules' that must be completed, and kids with computer access at home can work on them at home. Kids from low income families are screwed over - again. Other problems - spellcheck is always on, why learn real spelling when the computer fixes it for you? - The de-emphasis on…

> - spellcheck is always on, why learn real spelling when the computer fixes it for you? I don't have an answer to that question. At least, not a better one than than some vague "it will build character." Do you have another answer in mind? Something I've been wondering about is the effect of typewriters and word processors on the development of penmanship. Has the average penmanship of a highschool graduate improved…

I think penmanship as an art is basically dead.

Yes, kids still work on improving their handwriting, but only insofar as it's legible.

I actually think this started out with the death of fountain pens, although computers likely contributed. We might be witnessing the death of connected writing.

Re: The technology pushed into schools today is a threat to child development

#180

Post by mrr54 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 3:27 AM UTC

mcqueenjordan wrote: post #175

mrr54 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it can't be inspiring. I'm sure youtube videos about mathematics have inspired quite a few young people to pursue mathematics! They can foster an interest, inspire people to learn, etc. But that doesn't make them educational.

A video recording of the MIT OCW courses is absolutely educational. Many science/technology focused YouTube channels absolutely produce educational content. You don't need to receive a title or a credential to have received education. I'm deeply sorry that you've struggled with bad things you saw on the internet. That can be a compelling reason to limit access. But that doesn't redefine education.

>there are many great youtube channels packed with scientific content, like Smarter Every Day, Veritasium, Mark Rober, CGP Grey, VSauce, engineerguy, Physics Girl, Captain Disillusion, Mathologer, Numberphile, ...

That's what I was replying to. And those videos are not educational. They're 'interesting facts' or 'wow science is so coooooool!!!!!111 yeah science!!!11' channels.

>You don't need to receive a title or a credential to have received education.

Fun interesting facts are great for getting people interested in science, but they are not science! People coming away from a Mathloger video interested in maths? Brilliant. People coming away from a Mathloger video thinking they know maths? Not brilliant.