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The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

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Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#441

Post by tomc1985 »

BrendanEich wrote: post #372
tomc1985 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely he had been thinking about the project for some time. But the 10-days-execution story sounds much nicer

I joined Netscape on April 3, 1995 but in the server team, due to a temporary requisition shortage. I worked on what would eventually become HTTP 1.1, which we wanted to be more like SPDY or HTTP 2. Therefore I had only spare time to think about what became JS, and I used it to study HyperTalk, Logo, and other languages, not just Scheme or Self. I finally got transferred to the client team one whole month later, in e…

> Why do you feel compelled to make up a story? Because it sounds nicer to you to denigrate my work, it seems.

Because randos on the internet (especially business types) love to make stuff up in the name of puffery and deifying. Legends are rarely true.

Thank you for clarifying.

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#442

Post by collinmanderson »

BrendanEich wrote: post #374
Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was... kind of. My understanding is Eich had been thinking for a while about the idea of bringing a version of Scheme into the browser. He was lured to work for Netscape by the promise that yes, he could do this. Unfortunately the business decision came down that the language's syntax had to approximate Java. So the semantics of the language had probably been settled in his mind for quite some time, but the syntax…

I've spoken and written about the early days, e.g., here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX3ZABCdC38 Friends from SGI recruited me (second attempt) in March 1995, I joined in early April but in the server group. I thought a lot -- but worked too little due to server commitments -- during the month of April, about "the scripting language" which was suggested to be Scheme when I was being recruited, but which by the t…

So it sounds roughly one month of thinking and researching, then 10 days of coding?

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#443

Post by tracker1 »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #339
tracker1 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been tacitly supporting Edge myself, but drew a hard line at IE (even 11) for current projects. Without async functions, promises etc, it's just too much extra boilerplate, a separate build setup and a huge payload just to support IE11, let alone older. I'll be glad if/when Edge (blink) is deployed with a windows update.. the sooner the better, as far as I'm concerned.

> Been tacitly supporting Edge myself, but drew a hard line at IE (even 11) for current projects. Without async functions, promises etc, it's just too much extra boilerplate, a separate build setup and a huge payload just to support IE11, let alone older. We've been using TypeScript for all scripts longer than ~20 lines for years - so we got async functions for free (it compiles async/await TypeScript functions to IE…

TypeScript does NOT shim async functions[1] for you, or give you fetch-api[2]? AFAIK, if you want that functionality, you still need babel and the fills/transforms to support async in browsers without it are freakishly huge payloads. That doesn't count dynamic imports and a number of other features that TypeScript doesn't support.

I'd rather not support a dead browser, that's been dead for years now, that has clear replacements and alternatives. Not to mention security concerns above and beyond development pain..

    [1] https://caniuse.com/#feat=async-functions
    [2] https://caniuse.com/#feat=fetch

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#444

Post by tracker1 »

depressedpanda wrote: post #380
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Been tacitly supporting Edge myself, but drew a hard line at IE (even 11) for current projects. Without async functions, promises etc, it's just too much extra boilerplate, a separate build setup and a huge payload just to support IE11, let alone older. We've been using TypeScript for all scripts longer than ~20 lines for years - so we got async functions for free (it compiles async/await TypeScript functions to IE…

Why force all your users to download transpiled ES5, just to accommodate IE11 dinosaurs? Not to mention all the issues you'll have if you try to use CSS Flex or Grid. Support IE11 only if you absolutely must, is my advice, and do that with differential serving: https://philipwalton.com/articles/deploying-es2015-code-in-p... https://calendar.perfplanet.com/2018/doing-differential-serv...

Agreed, but I'd just assume avoid dual builds and targets at this point... a project I'm working on started with IE11 support and dual build targets, but broke in IE11 about 3 weeks in, so changed the "legacy" build mode to a page noting the requirement for a modern and secure browser.

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#445

Post by tracker1 »

tomc1985 wrote: post #348
tracker1 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IE6 was closed source and only ran on Windows... Chromium/Blink run cross platform, open source and already 2 forks in. There's some stark contrast, even if it's more of a mono-culture, it's nothing like the IE6 days, even if google does have more power/control than other stakeholders.

IE had a mac version, but it died due to lack of interest/support

IIRC, the mac version never got an IE6 release, it was 5.x...

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#446

Post by mehrdadn »

olah_1 wrote: post #433
dataflow wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Left side is actually sharp, with subpixel smoothing. Right side is awful (just like many parts of post-Vista Windows) with apparent grayscale AA. This is something they actually got right; it's one thing that was terrible about IE and the old Edge, and that I'd bet was subconsciously turning many people off (in my case, consciously making me want to tear my eyes out). If you can't see the difference, open dev consol…

> Firefox's bold font rendering is one thing keeping me away from it. You are not alone. Firefox font rendering actually upsets me. Comparing to Chrome rendering, it's just a non-starter. I have brought this up many times, but I get blasted for it. Apparently it's all based on opinion alone and you and I have a very minority opinion in these tech communities. I suspect that the silent majority is with us though.

Yeah, exactly. I get blasted all the time for it too. Same suspicion here about other users being on our side, though they might not be able to put their finger on what the problem is.

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#447

Post by BrendanEich »

collinmanderson wrote: post #442
BrendanEich wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spoken and written about the early days, e.g., here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX3ZABCdC38 Friends from SGI recruited me (second attempt) in March 1995, I joined in early April but in the server group. I thought a lot -- but worked too little due to server commitments -- during the month of April, about "the scripting language" which was suggested to be Scheme when I was being recruited, but which by the t…

So it sounds roughly one month of thinking and researching, then 10 days of coding?

That's what I wrote, yeah. With constraints going from "Come do Scheme!" to "make it look like Java" and even "feel like Java" because interop, via what we hoped would come, and did in Netscape 3, as a JS/Java bridge called LiveConnect.

The Belgium Post built a whole web app+service architecture on LiveConnect.

Think of LiveConnect as "Active Scripting" on MS's platform, which enabled Java components to be developed and glued together by JS.

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#448

Post by mrpippy »

marbletiles wrote: post #298
altitudinous wrote: post #127

On MacOS it requires admin privilege to install. I am done with that after all the crap that previous software with admin rights installed. I cleaned it up and swore I would not install anything that required admin rights again - for my own security and peace of mind. What does it need admin rights for?

Do "Show Files" in the Installer app's menubar and it'll show you everything it's installing. In this case, it's installing Edge and the universal Microsoft AutoUpdater app. Given the range of stuff that thing has to support (including all the Office apps) and the privs it will need to run at to do so, I think the admin requirement is not entirely unreasonable.

Ah, well at least it's using Microsoft's pre-existing AutoUpdater (the same one used by Office if you don't get it from the App Store)

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#449

Post by BrendanEich »

tomc1985 wrote: post #441
BrendanEich wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I joined Netscape on April 3, 1995 but in the server team, due to a temporary requisition shortage. I worked on what would eventually become HTTP 1.1, which we wanted to be more like SPDY or HTTP 2. Therefore I had only spare time to think about what became JS, and I used it to study HyperTalk, Logo, and other languages, not just Scheme or Self. I finally got transferred to the client team one whole month later, in e…

> Why do you feel compelled to make up a story? Because it sounds nicer to you to denigrate my work, it seems. Because randos on the internet (especially business types) love to make stuff up in the name of puffery and deifying. Legends are rarely true. Thank you for clarifying.

You are a business type?

Re: The new Microsoft Edge is out of preview

#450

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

tracker1 wrote: post #443
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Been tacitly supporting Edge myself, but drew a hard line at IE (even 11) for current projects. Without async functions, promises etc, it's just too much extra boilerplate, a separate build setup and a huge payload just to support IE11, let alone older. We've been using TypeScript for all scripts longer than ~20 lines for years - so we got async functions for free (it compiles async/await TypeScript functions to IE…

TypeScript does NOT shim async functions[1] for you, or give you fetch-api[2]? AFAIK, if you want that functionality, you still need babel and the fills/transforms to support async in browsers without it are freakishly huge payloads. That doesn't count dynamic imports and a number of other features that TypeScript doesn't support. I'd rather not support a dead browser, that's been dead for years now, that has clear r…

TypeScript does shim async functions, you just need to supply your own `Promise` polyfill ( https://mariusschulz.com/blog/compiling-async-await-to-es3-e... ). `fetch` also works fine with a third-party polyfill. Combined, that's about 30KiB extra compared to pure ES6 (before GZip).
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