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An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

aeon.co

121–130 of 159 posts

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offspring, perhaps. But kidnapping is not reproduction.

I'd say it's reproduction, it's just not voluntary reproduction. Every time a culture invades another, you can think of it as creating a new culture that has the "genes" of the previous two. Examples include the influence of the moors on Spain, the changes to the English language due to the Norman conquest, and the modern unique Afrikaner culture of South Africa.

I'd say it is a mix.

Partly reproduction, partly conquering. As usual the place is not empty.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#122
post #119

I wonder if this could be used as an argument for Panpsychism?

I'm trying to figure out a way to incorporate this notion of hierarchical life into panpsychism and the "global brain" hypothesis. (Disclaimer: I'm already sold on and a proponent of the theory of panpsychism.) It seems more and more to me like this hierarchy goes all the way up (to the single superorganism that is the universe) and all the way down (to the presence or absence of fermions in particular states, induci…

Oh wow, thanks for the great reply. I didn't think anyone would respond. I'm going to dig into the links.

Do you have any other suggested reading?

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#123
Working in Industrial Automation has given me alot of respect to ants. While I was interning at Tesla a few years back, it amazed me how 'no one person' understood the massive operations of building the model 3, but together (along with our 1000's of suppliers) we were able to make extremely advanced technology.

Essentially, humans are just a more advanced version of ants. No one understands the vast amount of knowledge we've gathered, but this knowledge has allowed us to be able to sustain our vastly growing population numbers. Without this 'specialization of knowledge' or given some apocalyptic scenario, our ability to sustain our numbers would drastically decrease.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#124
post #71
post #36

Yesterday there was a link in HN regarding artificial intelligence, and a user raised an interesting question: if a ML algorithm can be considered conscious, could a group of people doing the equivalent calculations by hand be the same? I think that ant example answers that question with a strong "yes".

Here is an even more interesting question: if an ML algorithm can be considered conscious, do you even need to "run" it (whether on a computer or by a "group of people doing calculations by hand") for that consciousness to exist? An algorithm is fully deterministic... it will always produce the same result, always "think the same thoughts" given the same input. So where is the consciousness, in the execution, or in t…

An algorithm is deterministic based on a given 'input'. Consciousness is just your 'perception' and 'will' given certain inputs. One of the fundamental constraints of consciousness is the ability to make predictions and 'confirm' those predictions. By confirm I mean to a reasonable degree of certainty that 'you' are comfortable with. There's no real 'truth' (besides maybe from a physics standpoint?) only what the conciouss entity, or collective 'concious entities' deem to be a truth. Unfortunately, this is what a bias also is.

Most of these ideas came from Jeff Hawkings thousand mind theory

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#125
post #15

> Ants use the rate at which they meet and smell other ants, or the chemicals deposited by other ants, to decide what to do next. A neuron uses the rate at which it is stimulated by other neurons to decide whether to fire. In both cases, memory arises from changes in how ants or neurons connect and stimulate each other. Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with e…

> Main takeaway, very interesting analogy. Ant colonies are great examples of complex systems with emergent large-scale behavior. Indeed the same could be said about networks of neurons. Interesting to think of an ant colony as the sum of oscillations of signals. Indeed. I've long thought that an ant colony should be seen as a single individual, rather than a group. One part which can procreate, like the reproductive…

The emergent layers are organelles -> cell -> tissue -> organ -> organ system -> organism -> organization.

Consciousness is an emergent phenomenon and a collection of consciousness is the noosphere. Even though each of your organs make their own decisions and contribute individually to your "consciousness", you still consider the entire thing your "self". Your decisions are made based on analyzing multiple conflicting distributed signals given off by your organs.

Organizations are no different, assuming identity, autonomy, and motivation.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#126

I think something similar has been suggested in the book called Godel,Escher,Bach.

That’s what I thought as soon as I read the title. Aunt Hillary, the anteaters favourite companion. The anteater describes to Achilles how emergent properties of intelligence are coded into the movements of the ants in the network. Great book!

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#127
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why suppose the neural network needs to solve differential equations? Is that the only way to learn to catch a ball? Yes. You need to decide where to put your hand, how to orient it, etc in reaction to the ball movement. The answer is a solution to the differential equations, and you cannot consistently get a good answer to an equation if you don't solve it. The solution probably isn't symbolic but numeric, but tha…

I don’t think because we can solve the problem with differential equations necessarily means that our subconscious mind is solving it in the same way. There’s certainly other possible explanations

Whatever it's doing it takes the same inputs and gets the same outputs, how else would you call it?

Do you agree at least that a xor gate is doing math?

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison is apt and, yes, both contexts are similar. But the observation still doesn't answer whether either a group of humans, a digital neural network or an ant colony actually is conscious. "conscious" is a language construct that defines an abstract concept that is only vaguely defined. Why? Because we haven't found a falsifiable theory that allows us to objectively state "x or y are conscious or not consci…

> "conscious" is a language construct that defines an abstract concept that is only vaguely defined. Why? Because we haven't found a falsifiable theory that allows us to objectively state "x or y are conscious or not conscious" I lean on defining the concept based on adaptation to the environment - consciousness is the function that adapts an agent to its environment. Its purpose is to safeguard the agent against ext…

But some of us are using the word 'consciousness' to refer to the existence of subjective experience. It may be impossible even in principle to get very far on most of the deepest questions about consciousness in this sense. But it's still real, it still matters a great deal, and we still make important decisions based on our best guesses.

(Why should I care what happens to other people, and try to avoid harming them? Because they're clearly conscious, capable of joy, suffering, etc. What about other animals, like dogs and cows and chickens? That seems pretty obvious too, given our biological and behavioral similarities. What about molluscs? Hmm, there are some potentially important differences there. What about rocks? I can't know, but they have none of the features I usually associate with consciousness, and if they do have internal experience I have no idea what determines it, so I might as well continue to assume not.)

As soon as you define consciousness in functional terms, you make it tractable, but you also detach it from the thing we were originally wondering about. (The problem is that purely materialist or functionalist explanations always run into the question 'but why does there have to be internal subjective experience associated with these things/events/systems, and not others?'. Consciousness itself, in the 'qualia' sense, never plays a functional role in these explanations -- and if we weren't already assuming its existence, they would give us no hint that it exists.)

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such as whether we are unique and special, or that we may also be deterministic automatons and free will doesn't exist. That's only scratching the surface of the implications. The real question arises when we have to decide what moral rights consciousness proffers. A lot of arguments for and against vegetarianism, for instance, focus on whether animals suffer in a way that we would understand as suffering. A lot of…

Don't worry, if it is conscious it will fight back and have a will of its own. It won't be hard to tell. But we could quickly settle this question if we checked some things first: does it need anything (have necessities)? does it learn? can it act on its environment? Can it evolve? Is it part of a group or alone? If no, then it's probably not conscious. All the conscious agents I know have one and the same ultimate g…

Why are you confident about any of these things? Unless you're simply stipulating a definition, and not worrying too much about whether it corresponds to 'consciousness' in the sense most of us care about.

Re: An ant colony has memories its individual members don’t have (2019)

#130
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why suppose the neural network needs to solve differential equations? Is that the only way to learn to catch a ball? Yes. You need to decide where to put your hand, how to orient it, etc in reaction to the ball movement. The answer is a solution to the differential equations, and you cannot consistently get a good answer to an equation if you don't solve it. The solution probably isn't symbolic but numeric, but tha…

> You could completely automate it, remove the human and nothing would change from the outside. Right, but my point is that following a bunch of translation rules from one language to another is not the same thing as understanding a language. That's not what humans are doing when they use language. > The solution probably isn't symbolic but numeric, but that hardly changes anything - you still need a lot of math to c…

The Chinese room isn't doing translation, I don't understand why you bring it up. It takes input in Chinese and responds in Chinese.

Also the Chinese room would express emotions, do word games etc, whatever's appropriate in the context. The people doing the lookups wouldn't know that they are writing a joke, but who cares about them?

> This is assuming the brain is doing math.

Well of course brain is doing math, see: 234-123=111 - this is math, my brain did this.

> Even deeper than that, it's assuming that math is something more than a specialized human language

If neurons arriving at solutions to math problems consciously is math, then why neurons arriving at these same solutions subconsciously isn't?

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