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How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

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Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#131

Post by rolltiide »

growlist wrote: post #31
tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

Exactly! I had 'unconcious bias' training at work, one of the learning outcomes of which was to understand the 'scientific basis' for unconcious bias. After reviewing the material and finding myself somewhat dubious of its claims, I - as a good scientist working in a technical role in a technical company - went off to research for myself. Turns out the supposed scientific basis is deeply flawed. And yet, this trainin…

Are you guys talking about things like this?

"here comes Karen, let me discriminate by noticing how I might discriminate so to make her more comfortable because I can't perceive my privilege but now I can alter my behavior just around her"

Isn't there some utility in keeping the workplace productive just by being sensitive, as opposed to quantifying if it "reduces discrimination"

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#132

Post by zaroth »

fefe23 wrote: post #63
tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

I think you misinterpret why this is being done. It's not to train employees. It's a hedge against accusations of racism. So management can point at this and say: see? We did all we could!

Bingo. Not just a hedge against accusations but even a hedge against civil liability.

A similar story plays out in academic settings for Title IX training.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#133

Post by freepor »

ianleeclark wrote: post #108
freepor wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to forgive the diversity training industry a little as they are being hired to convince people of a fact that is known to be wrong. If you look at the most successful tech companies in history, they are all built by teams that are >90% white and Asian men, and as they grow hire more white and Asian women. Yet we’re supposed to believe that we can do even better through different methods, and become even more…

> Yet we’re supposed to believe that we can do even better through different methods, and become even more successful than Apple and Amazon etc. This is a prime example of why diversity training is needed. People are deeply biased in regards to seeing something successful and then thinking that is the formula to success. It's textbook survivorship bias. Furthermore, it completely misses the material basis for why the…

Yes, aspirants pattern-match from success and make tweaks they deem essential to their goals. That‘s the history of human endeavor. Already you see female software engineering hiring growing in priority in the companies that are struggling with hiring.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#134

Post by izzydata »

thestephen wrote: post #84
bjourne wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me ask you something: Is unconscious bias training the worst example of bullshit you have experienced in your professional life or the thing that has aggravated you the most? Does that tell you anything about your unconscious biases? The point of the training is for companies to absolve themselves of culpability. If you act like a jerk after unconscious bias training you are on your own and the company hopes that…

> Is unconscious bias training the worst example of bullshit you have experienced in your professional life or the thing that has aggravated you the most? I can't see the parent making this claim at all; are you sure that your interpretation is in good faith?

They might be unconsciously biased.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#135

Post by linuxftw »

wayoutthere wrote: post #15
dgellow wrote: post #9

> · Red: dominant, driven, solution focussed. > · Blue: analytic, careful, meticulous > · Green: patient, considerate, nice > · Yellow: extroverted, creative, verbal Damn. I spent so much of my time and energy pushing back exactly on this bullshit when I was young. That's part of the curriculum of mandatory courses I had to take during an apprenticeship in Switzerland. Expensive and mandatory courses paid by students…

I think a big part of it is that corporate HR types are trying to turn people into interchangeable cogs in the machine. But this ignores the richness of our experience -- even if the color model were both static and true, I'm willing to guess that the expression of those characteristics would vary widely from person to person. Better to just get to know people individually and talk to them about their desires, capabi…

The problem is HR types are absolute conformist authoritarians. They don't have any critical thinking skills whatsoever, otherwise they wouldn't be in that field.

It's the exact kind of thing I expect colleges and universities to push out. People that can only regurgitate information and then get indignant if you as much as question it's validity. Brainwashing really works, and people often pay for the privilege.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#137

Post by DiffEq »

OJFord wrote: post #127
yhoiseth wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately the books are still sold. I've considered printing stickers that warns about the nonsense and sneak it on to copies in book stores. Great idea! We should do that for Why We Sleep, too: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/

The article starts by stating fairly that the book's author is a professor of psychology and neuroscience and UC Berkeley. The article author's homepage says: > I'm an independent researcher with background in Economics, Mathematics, and Cognitive Science. Since I don't have any prior knowledge of the area, I'm sure either of them could convince me of their argument. So I'm inclined to believe the published Berkeley…

Credentials play no role in this fight. There are plenty of examples of credentialed people fabricating and lying. The author documents the lies pretty soundly.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#138

Post by achow »

achow wrote: post #2

Couldn't help but check that it is rated 4.6/5 (113 reviews) in Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Surrounded-Idiots-Behavior-Effectivel... Excerpt from one of the top review.. The book really helps you to understand why 'blues' ask 100 questions, want to problem solve all the time, always ask for more information, and can be cold and distant instead of being emotional creatures. Yellows on the other hand are always day…

Really bizarre that I now only see 26 ratings in the Amazon page, as opposed to 113 that I saw earlier. https://www.amazon.com/Surrounded-Idiots-Behaviour-Understan...

Anyone know what is happening?

Is that the sudden burst of traffic from HN triggered some kind of Amazon's fake review analysis and they took down bunch of reviews?

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#139

Post by csours »

fastball wrote: post #117
csours wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, some/many Japanese believe that blood type determines a lot about your personality, and Americans believe in Myers-Briggs types, and I'm sure there are local equivalents everywhere else too, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I always thought of Myers-Briggs as being about identifying the things you are less comfortable with and learning to address them. It's about identification of tendencies, not blaming a Gremlin.

Someone should do a talk on Pseudo-Psychology, the Good Parts. I had no idea what Myers-Briggs was actually meant to be used for.
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