How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots” • Hacker News Board

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#121

Post by 45ure » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

It is hard to figure out from this verbose article, whether it is just professional jealousy or a genuine need to debunk the theory of assigning colours to personality types, as described in the book titled Surrounded by idiots. The crux of the argument is that a professional psychologist, who is also a member Swedish Skeptics Society, is refuting the author's claim of being a 'behavioural scientist', yet he admits that it is a meaningless term and also legal in Sweden.

Erikson e-mailed me (we both shared the same international agent, so we had met briefly once before) and asked whether, given my own profession as a psychologist and my position as a board member of the Swedish Skeptics Society, I would support his claim that he was a ‘behavioural scientist’. I declined to offer such support, despite the fact that from a legal point of view in Sweden, it is possible to call yourself a ‘behavioural scientist’ without any formal qualifications. He has just as much right as my poodle to call himself a behavioural scientist.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#122

Post by behringer » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

giggles_giggles wrote: post #98

bjourne wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me ask you something: Is unconscious bias training the worst example of bullshit you have experienced in your professional life or the thing that has aggravated you the most? Does that tell you anything about your unconscious biases? The point of the training is for companies to absolve themselves of culpability. If you act like a jerk after unconscious bias training you are on your own and the company hopes that…

I've seen studies[1][2] which indicate that unconscious racial bias training increases racist attitudes among those who are put through it. If that's true, unconscious bias training might be worse than bullshit, it might be actively harmful and counterproductive to its stated goals. 1 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6524213/ 2 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/095001701771984...

Ah we're making a generation of Michael Scott Racists.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#123

Post by KirinDave » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

There is actually lots of good evidence that familiarity with unfamiliar ethnic groups and exposure to different cultural priorities makes people less prone to conflict and bad reactions.

I've worked at a lot of places, and I've yet to see an anti-bias training that was more than awareness-raising. I've never ever heard any suggest more radical ideas (such as restorative justice).

While we might argue that current D&I initiatives are not working at a pace we'd prefer, I do think the literature strongly suggest that the method of informed exposure and consideration for issues other than your own tends to work. What's more, these programs are extremely inexpensive compared to more radical restructuring of companies (or the often pie-in-the-sky suggestions of folks who will die on the hill of "it is a pipeline problem").

Some examples of not-too-old research on how simple conversations and exposure can change attitudes:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/346/6215/1366

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2705986/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B978008088...

P.S., it's worth noting that if you haven't scanned the scientific literature carefully, you're committing the same error as the folks who fell for this goofy color theory scam by putting your own biases and intuition above the scientific method.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#124

Post by bjourne » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 4:30 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #92

bjourne wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what you mean. About 25 years ago in Sweden the leading party the Social Democrats instituted a policy championed by feminists that meant that every other elected position should be occupied by a woman. Research has shown that that policy has led to more qualified candidates across the political spectrum. There is also evidence from Sweden that attitudes towards rape and sexual assault has changed due t…

An internal policy for the list of candidates on their ballot , stating that every other candidate must be a woman. This is not the same as the list of who eventually gets elected of course, as the probability of getting elected decreases the further down the list you go. Also the policy appears to apply per ballot, and since there are something like 30 regions with (possibly) independent ballots, there is still some…

For ballots for municipal elections, the candidate's order rarely changes due to person voting. Effectively, the order set by the party is the order people are elected in, barring exceptional circumstances (someone being very popular or unpopular).

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#125

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 4:31 PM UTC

hannasanarion wrote: post #90

growlist wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! I had 'unconcious bias' training at work, one of the learning outcomes of which was to understand the 'scientific basis' for unconcious bias. After reviewing the material and finding myself somewhat dubious of its claims, I - as a good scientist working in a technical role in a technical company - went off to research for myself. Turns out the supposed scientific basis is deeply flawed. And yet, this trainin…

"bias training doesn't eliminate bias" isn't the same thing as "bias doesn't exist".

[deleted]

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#126

Post by TheNorthman » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 4:33 PM UTC

Iceland_jack wrote: post #101

bjourne wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me ask you something: Is unconscious bias training the worst example of bullshit you have experienced in your professional life or the thing that has aggravated you the most? Does that tell you anything about your unconscious biases? The point of the training is for companies to absolve themselves of culpability. If you act like a jerk after unconscious bias training you are on your own and the company hopes that…

> Does that tell you anything about your unconscious biases? There is so much to unpack about you here

> There is so much to unpack about you here

This says so much about you

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#127

Post by OJFord » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

yhoiseth wrote: post #103

fredrik-j wrote: post #52

As a swede this is a bit embarrassing to me. I have a few friends who's bought into this completely, and of course bought the book. All without even a hint of critical thinking. It is hard to tell your friends they've been conned. I can understand it to some extent. Here's someone, who claims he is a behavioral expert and scientist, and who offers a seemingly plausible simple method to understand yourself and other p…

> Unfortunately the books are still sold. I've considered printing stickers that warns about the nonsense and sneak it on to copies in book stores. Great idea! We should do that for Why We Sleep, too: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/

The article starts by stating fairly that the book's author is a professor of psychology and neuroscience and UC Berkeley.

The article author's homepage says:

> I'm an independent researcher with background in Economics, Mathematics, and Cognitive Science.

Since I don't have any prior knowledge of the area, I'm sure either of them could convince me of their argument. So I'm inclined to believe the published Berkeley professor over the unaffiliated independent reviewer.

(Or perhaps the auto-bio is being too modest?)

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#128

Post by Zenst » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #64

tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

It depends on what you mean. About 25 years ago in Sweden the leading party the Social Democrats instituted a policy championed by feminists that meant that every other elected position should be occupied by a woman. Research has shown that that policy has led to more qualified candidates across the political spectrum. There is also evidence from Sweden that attitudes towards rape and sexual assault has changed due t…

It wasn't until 2018 that nonconsensual sex was classed as rape in Sweden (1). Which is somewhat surprising that it took that long given the political climate you outline.

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#129

Post by growlist » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #77

growlist wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! I had 'unconcious bias' training at work, one of the learning outcomes of which was to understand the 'scientific basis' for unconcious bias. After reviewing the material and finding myself somewhat dubious of its claims, I - as a good scientist working in a technical role in a technical company - went off to research for myself. Turns out the supposed scientific basis is deeply flawed. And yet, this trainin…

Let me ask you something: Is unconscious bias training the worst example of bullshit you have experienced in your professional life or the thing that has aggravated you the most? Does that tell you anything about your unconscious biases? The point of the training is for companies to absolve themselves of culpability. If you act like a jerk after unconscious bias training you are on your own and the company hopes that…

I didn't act like a jerk before the training, never mind after :)

I had training called 'cultural awareness' or similar at another company which was basically very similar material, but without the bogus claims that it was rooted in science. It's the latter that I object to - if they are going to enforce behavioural standards just be honest about it, rather than gaslighting people with this arrant nonsense that we're all unknowing bigots through some kind of original sin.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#130

Post by planetzero » Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

growlist wrote: post #31

tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

Exactly! I had 'unconcious bias' training at work, one of the learning outcomes of which was to understand the 'scientific basis' for unconcious bias. After reviewing the material and finding myself somewhat dubious of its claims, I - as a good scientist working in a technical role in a technical company - went off to research for myself. Turns out the supposed scientific basis is deeply flawed. And yet, this trainin…

It really has nothing to do with science at all. It's just another way to punish the majority for crimes of their ancestors, and to forcibly give power to a minority for simply existing and being a certain race or gender.

Nobody really wants equality. They want supremacy. If they did have equality, they would be treated like everyone else and lose all of their power/special treatment.

They are also tools of our politicians to be a permanent victim class, so the politicians can dole out justice and get votes.