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How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

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Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#71

Post by raxxorrax »

growlist wrote: post #31
tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

Exactly! I had 'unconcious bias' training at work, one of the learning outcomes of which was to understand the 'scientific basis' for unconcious bias. After reviewing the material and finding myself somewhat dubious of its claims, I - as a good scientist working in a technical role in a technical company - went off to research for myself. Turns out the supposed scientific basis is deeply flawed. And yet, this trainin…

I would immediately change your workplace if you are able to do so.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#72

Post by andrepd »

tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

It's not exclusive to anti-bias "sensitivity training". It's pretty much all the industry of corporate training seminars. "Team-building", bunk "psychology tests"... You know the type. You probably had to endure them. They cost tens of thousands of dollars each, they're completely useless, but still, the managers with more budget than sense buy them, and it's a billion dollar industry.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#73

Post by tomp »

MadWombat wrote: post #68
tomp wrote: post #42

> Unfortunately, the theory behind this book, and the various follow-ups, is no more than pseudoscientific nonsense. And Erikson appears to lack even basic knowledge of psychology or behavioural science. This seems to happen often. Are there any non-pseudoscientific psychology theories? AFAIK only IQ and (possibly) the "Big Five" personality traits. Short list of (likely) "failed" (pop-)psychological theories: - ster…

Myers-Briggs is just about as unscientific as it gets. Neither Myers nor Myers-Briggs (her daughter) had any formal education in psychology or any serious experience. Their personality types are based on Jung's ideas that are over a 100 years old and have been long since discredited. There are no studies that confirm that MBTI type is predictive of anything. There are studies that seem to confirm that the dichotomies…

Thanks for the clarification. I actually had the Big Five in mind - somehow I confused that and MB. Even there, I don't really have any idea if Big Five is "true" (stable and/or predictive) or not, I'm really just listening to Jordan Peterson here.

I'll edit the post above.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#74

Post by username90 »

lemagedurage wrote: post #33

How come dividing personality into introverted and extroverted (1 dimension) is generally accepted, but dividing personality into more dimensions (disc has 2, mbti has 4, big five has 5, etc), people tend to feel uneasy (e. g. "I am more than just this")? All traps aside (confirmation bias, overdoing it), I do believe these categorizations do make sense as a way to learn about behavior, especially for the general pub…

Big5 is the only one of them with any scientific backing, the others are just pseudo science.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#75

Post by coliveira »

dgellow wrote: post #9

> · Red: dominant, driven, solution focussed. > · Blue: analytic, careful, meticulous > · Green: patient, considerate, nice > · Yellow: extroverted, creative, verbal Damn. I spent so much of my time and energy pushing back exactly on this bullshit when I was young. That's part of the curriculum of mandatory courses I had to take during an apprenticeship in Switzerland. Expensive and mandatory courses paid by students…

I participated on this kind of training in more than one organization, and I see the issue as trying to give an artificial justification to existing leadership and to the general organization style of the company (generally multi-layered pyramid). They will somehow always conclude that managers have the "right" leadership characteristics, and that people being lead should be fine with their position, because after all this is who they are!

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#76

Post by rapnie »

umeshunni wrote: post #5
0xcde4c3db wrote: post #3

This seems strikingly similar to the "shape" nonsense being sold to managers as an explanation of explain team dynamics [1]. [1] https://www.delcor.com/resources/blog/project-management-per...

As a matter of fact I have done a very similar color-coded personality test at a corporate event. https://www.insights.com/us/products/insights-discovery/ After the test, we were even given blocks to keep at our desks so that people who interact with us knew whether we were 'blue' or 'yellow' and adapt their reactions accordingly. I guess I should have just said I was an Aquarius or Capricorn or some such and it woul…

I also did this Insights Discovery with a bunch of colleagues.

Two weeks beforehand we had to do an online multiple choice questionaire with about 20 questions. Based on this everyone received an elaborate report with their personality analyses. Strong points, weak points, etc. Very detailed.

But I've got to say that everyone in our group - mostly rational devs - was positively surprised how accurate these analyses were.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#77

Post by bjourne »

growlist wrote: post #31
tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

Exactly! I had 'unconcious bias' training at work, one of the learning outcomes of which was to understand the 'scientific basis' for unconcious bias. After reviewing the material and finding myself somewhat dubious of its claims, I - as a good scientist working in a technical role in a technical company - went off to research for myself. Turns out the supposed scientific basis is deeply flawed. And yet, this trainin…

Let me ask you something: Is unconscious bias training the worst example of bullshit you have experienced in your professional life or the thing that has aggravated you the most? Does that tell you anything about your unconscious biases?

The point of the training is for companies to absolve themselves of culpability. If you act like a jerk after unconscious bias training you are on your own and the company hopes that it can't be blamed for it.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#78

Post by classicsnoot »

bjourne wrote: post #64
tenpies wrote: post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

It depends on what you mean. About 25 years ago in Sweden the leading party the Social Democrats instituted a policy championed by feminists that meant that every other elected position should be occupied by a woman. Research has shown that that policy has led to more qualified candidates across the political spectrum. There is also evidence from Sweden that attitudes towards rape and sexual assault has changed due t…

>Research has shown...more qualified candidates...

First, can you link a source? Second, what does "more qualified" mean in the context of politicians? They are selected by popularity in the majority; capabilities are downstream from likeability. This, one could argue that "more qualified" could be construed as "excellent hair" or "large breasts." This is not to say that the job of political official does not have constraints or optimums, but the method of job placement is the issue in terms of my question.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#79

Post by NPMaxwell »

tomp wrote: post #42

> Unfortunately, the theory behind this book, and the various follow-ups, is no more than pseudoscientific nonsense. And Erikson appears to lack even basic knowledge of psychology or behavioural science. This seems to happen often. Are there any non-pseudoscientific psychology theories? AFAIK only IQ and (possibly) the "Big Five" personality traits. Short list of (likely) "failed" (pop-)psychological theories: - ster…

Are there any non-pseudoscientific psychology theories? That's a good question. Here's an off-the-top-of-my-head list: Rescorla-Wagner, Pavlovian learning, Habituation, failure to thrive, opponent processes, dominance hierarchies, learned helplessness, one-trial learning of disgust, avoidance theory of phobia, short-term vs. long-term memory, chunking, the hypergeometric forgetting curve, public inhibition of non-dominant behaviors.

A challenge for Psychology in the U.S. is that Statistics is usually included in the curriculum in Spring of Senior year -- an after-thought. I've been off-and-on poking at creating a course that would put statistics immediately after Intro Psych.

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