Live data from Hacker News

How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

medium.com

41–50 of 340 posts

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#41
post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

The problem is that the people suggesting the better ways are usually... promoting rather unpalatable ideas. Often either that there is no discrimination in the workplace ever and so we should stop talking about it, or that discrimination in the workplace is in fact normal and healthy. I'd love to see a way of creating healthy, non-discriminatory workplaces, especially in industries that are usually pretty terrible.

>or that discrimination in the workplace is in fact normal and healthy

One thing that bothers me is that discrimination is seen as a four letter word, when it is something we do all the time and celebrate. Only specific forms are considered bad and we need to be more explicit on what and why.

For example, racial discrimination is bad. Discrimination based on what degree one holds is not. Or, given that not everyone has the same level of access to earn a degree, should we be so open in accepting such discrimination?

What about discriminating based on punctuality? It seems an easy one to justify, but there is a significant cultural impact on punctuality.

What about discrimination on factors that people can't control and that have no relation to work, but which are currently legally allowed. For example look at the correlation between height and pay. Should that be allowed and what efforts are we doing to stop it. And does it become more of a concern when we account for average height differences between genders and the gendered outcome that can result as a secondary result (paying short people less, given that women are on average shorter than men, results in paying women less).

These sort of conversations never seem to happen when it comes to discrimination in the work place, making me think the name of the issue doesn't accurately reflect what the acted upon concern is.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#42
> Unfortunately, the theory behind this book, and the various follow-ups, is no more than pseudoscientific nonsense. And Erikson appears to lack even basic knowledge of psychology or behavioural science.

This seems to happen often. Are there any non-pseudoscientific psychology theories? AFAIK only IQ and (possibly) the "Big Five" personality traits.

Short list of (likely) "failed" (pop-)psychological theories:

- stereotype threat [1]

- implicit bias - specifically refers to unconscious prejudice that exist independently of any explicit / conscious bias; however, measurements of implicit bias do not predict biased behavior [2] and therefore implicit bias training is likely completely useless [3] (this is not to say that explicit bias doesn't exist or that bigots don't try to conceal their bigotry)

- power posing, the idea that putting your body in a "power" position (a pose that projects confidence) alters your hormonal levels - even the original author no longer believes [4] that this effect is real (although I personally still think that "power poses" can have an effect on other people and how they perceive you)

- growth mindset, the belief that you can learn and improve (which I personally think is probably better than the reverse), doesn't actually result [5] in better educational outcomes (but can result in millions of dollars wasted [6]). The original researcher since came up with [7] a convenient concept of "false" growth mindset - "saying you have growth mindset when you don't really have it" - but critics rightfully counter with (from the Wikipedia link above):

> "If your effect is so fragile that it can only be reproduced [under strictly controlled conditions], then why do you think it can be reproduced by schoolteachers?"

and

> to claim that your performance in a cognitive task is entirely dictated by how hard you try and is nothing to do with raw candle-power flies in the face of more than 100 years of intelligence research".

- Stanford Prison Experiment [8] (where participants were knowingly acting out their roles and which was never successfully replicated)

- Milgram Experiment (which, although somewhat replicated, was recently criticized [9] that few participants actually believed the experiment was real - a potential issue with any replication attempts as well)

Hope I didn't mess up any links. This is based only on my completely amateur research of online sources, I'm more than happy to be pointed in the opposite direction!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat#Criticism

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_stereotype#Statement_...

[3] https://qz.com/1144504/the-world-is-relying-on-a-flawed-psyc...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_posing#Replication_failu...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck#Criticism

[6] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180522114523.h...

[7] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/12/how-pr...

[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Cri...

[9] https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/the-shocking-truth-of-...

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#43
I'm Swedish and yes, it was almost insufferable when this book was the hotness during the past two years, but this is hardly "one of the biggest scientific bluffs of our time". It's not even the worst one that got mainstream in Sweden. Electromagnetic hypersensitivity[1] is far more stupid and God knows how much money has been wasted on shielding people from electromagnetic fields by local governments. Hell, just the fact that this has been debated and taken seriously by politicians and government officials is astounding to me. It's a sad reflection on the state of physics literacy in my country.

So, stupid? Yes. One of the worst pseudo-scientific scandals ever to have swept over Sweden? Not even remotely close.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivi...

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#44
post #36

These types of things may not be science, but they are so popular and will always be popular because they are useful heuristics to make sense of the chaos of dealing with humans.

They might be heuristics, but how can they ever be useful? They can neither be used in the analysis of a person nor are they predictive...

Managers like them as they try to make sense of how their reports behave and work together, people they know but not really. Sounds like some people like them as a way to make sense of issues with their personal relationships. People outside yourself make decisions that are frequently confusing, and people like this sort of categorization to make sense of them.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#45
post #8

Is it not the same for the current wave of anti-bias/discrimination/racism training? There is zero evidence that it has any effect. What few brave researchers have risked their careers exploring the effectiveness of the training have found that it does basically nothing. None of that stops companies from paying millions for it and good luck to the employee or executive that even dares suggest that perhaps there's bet…

Exactly! I had 'unconcious bias' training at work, one of the learning outcomes of which was to understand the 'scientific basis' for unconcious bias. After reviewing the material and finding myself somewhat dubious of its claims, I - as a good scientist working in a technical role in a technical company - went off to research for myself. Turns out the supposed scientific basis is deeply flawed. And yet, this trainin…

I think the right way to think about this is that psychology has the imprimatur of legitimate science (and some pscyhological research is indeed legitimate), but a lot of it is more about having an idea you like, conducting a few inadequate studies, and publishing them in a domain journal with little critical review and no reproduction.

Then, the folks who teach these courses see these papers (presumably in their undergraduate psych classes?) and end up believing them, becacuse they don't have the necessary scientific analytic/critical skills to evaluate them.

At my employer, the IAT was originally presented as scientific fact (with citations). Over time, the citations changed from "This is great!" to "This work appears to not be scientifically accurate, but we like the idea" to "we will not be using this, unless you want to try it voluntarily".

I think in general most people in society don't really have the ability to differentiate bullshit science from real science. I've actually left my scientific field permanently because I've seen far too enough examples of fraud and incompetence leading to tenure track positions.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#47
I skimmed the entire article and am still confused about how this guy managed to persuade the media and “large parts of the Swedish population” that he’s a behavioral scientist. I mean, especially for laypeople, the first question you should ask when someone claims to be an expert in a certain science is “does s/he have a Ph.D.?”. This guy did not disclose his academic background, which no Ph.D. holder would ever hide, and his best claim to authority appears to be “in an interview with Filter I referred to a psychologist who supported my claim [to be a behavioural scientist]”, which is truly bizarre (and false btw). Additionally, this guy debuted as a crime novel author ffs (according to Google-translated version of his Swedish Wikipedia page[1]). What a joke.

(Granted, there’s a small percentage of frauds among Ph.D. holders. Meanwhile, the percentage of frauds among self-proclaimed non-Ph.D. experts is likely close to 100%.)

[1] https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=h...

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#48
post #42

> Unfortunately, the theory behind this book, and the various follow-ups, is no more than pseudoscientific nonsense. And Erikson appears to lack even basic knowledge of psychology or behavioural science. This seems to happen often. Are there any non-pseudoscientific psychology theories? AFAIK only IQ and (possibly) the "Big Five" personality traits. Short list of (likely) "failed" (pop-)psychological theories: - ster…

The likes of the author of the article will surely claim that there are, but that's what another "expert" few years/decades from now will be writing review on.

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#49
> the question remains as why so many people bought the book

I tend to think that people like very simple answers to complex questions.

Full spectrum of personality traits back-and-forth? The answer is four colors.

Perhaps the fact of just being able to understand any given answer makes people feel smart. I deduct it this way, since the author defends himself by claiming skeptics "are attempting to make out that his readers are idiots".

Re: How Swedes were fooled by the book “Surrounded by Idiots”

#50

How come dividing personality into introverted and extroverted (1 dimension) is generally accepted, but dividing personality into more dimensions (disc has 2, mbti has 4, big five has 5, etc), people tend to feel uneasy (e. g. "I am more than just this")? All traps aside (confirmation bias, overdoing it), I do believe these categorizations do make sense as a way to learn about behavior, especially for the general pub…

MBTI actually has 12 archetypes, hard to compare that with introvert and extrovert. I often reference being introverted but it's important to understand that it's a scale and everyone is somewhere on that scale. It's not binary. But it does help explain why I get tired from over exposure to strangers, but can go for hours in the company of family and close friends. And yeah I agree these things should only be used as…

MBTI has 16 archetypes, but they're all combinations of 4 letters / scales / dimensions, where 16personalities added one to that (assertive turbulent).

I do believe it helped me find out about the differences of other people's internal worlds, but the journey did involve avoiding a lot of pitfalls and taking everything with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Post reply on HN